Create Engaging Learning with Augmented Reality w/Betty Dannewitz
Episode Overview
Betty Dannewitz shares her story on today's episode how she broke into AR, the untapped potential it holds for the learning industry, and her hands-on experience with tools like Zapper. We’ll explore the challenges AR faces, its comparison to the rise of e-learning, and the innovative ways it can be integrated with learning management systems. We'll also touch on Betty’s passion for karaoke and how it ties into creating communities and conquering fears. So tune in for a session full of insights on embracing new technologies in talent development. Don't forget to like and subscribe for more from Making Better!
About Betty Dannewitz
Betty Dannewtiz is a Learning Solutions Architect at Blanchard and host of the ifyouaskbetty podcast where she helps learning professionals at all levels, improve their skills and think about design differently. She is also a passionate advocate of XR solutions in learning, which is why she is on the show today.
Full Transcript
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Betty Dannewitz [00:00:00]:
One, it's not as difficult as you think. Two, it's cheap. You can actually open a hobbyist account and prototype like up to five experiences for nothing. And the account stays open forever. So once you start actually applying them to your learning experiences, you'll need to get a license. But Zapper lets you get in there and just play with it for a minute and see if it's going to work for you, which I think is amazing. Think of it as just like every other tool in your tool belt, right? So we have lots of tools. We have storyline, we have video editing software.
Betty Dannewitz [00:00:37]:
We have sometimes video recording software. We have animated videos. We have micro learning. Right? We have Adobe. Here's the thing. If you can create a PowerPoint slide, you can create a simple augmented reality experience. You already have the skill set. I'm going to say it one more time.
Betty Dannewitz [00:00:54]:
You already have it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:57]:
Hello and welcome to the Making Better podcast, where we talk about how to make ourselves, our teams, and our organizations better. Whether you are a business leader, a learning development professional, a technical trainer, this show will give you actionable insights to help you improve your own performance and the performance of those around you. Our guest today is Betty Danowitz. Betty is a learning solutions architect at Blanchard and host of the if you Ask Betty Podcast, where she helps learning professionals at all levels improve their skills and think about design differently. She is also a passionate advocate of XR Solutions in learning, which is why she is on the show today. I met Betty a few months ago and we have gotten to know each other quite well through working on ATD's technology conference. I wanted to have her on today to talk about her work in the XR space because I am, as you've probably heard in recent shows, getting extremely passionate about this technology, and I'm hoping Betty can help me figure it out. Before we get into the discussion, I need to remind you that if you are not a subscriber, make sure to take a moment to Hit subscribe so you never miss a future episode.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:05]:
And if you're already a subscriber, I would love it if you would take a moment to share this show with at least one other person, because that is how we grow. I can't tell you how much it means to me. So with that, let's get into the discussion. Betty, how are you doing?
Betty Dannewitz [00:02:23]:
I'm doing, I'm doing good. Doing really good. It's Friday, which doesn't really matter on a podcast, but for me it, yeah, what's not to love about that?
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:33]:
Yeah, exactly. It's always nice to end the week with a little bit, recording, a little friendly little conversation.
Betty Dannewitz [00:02:39]:
Yeah, why not? Why not?
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:41]:
So I think you and I, at least from my point of view, need to be classified as really close friends because we have done karaoke together, and you actually introduced me to karaoke. This is one thing that you really like. What is with your love for karaoke?
Betty Dannewitz [00:03:00]:
Yeah. Okay. So I've been fascinated with it for a long time, but up until about five years ago, I had a crippling fear of singing in front of people to the point where I was. I could get up and speak to 500 people and have absolutely nothing planned to say, and I'd probably be just fine. A little nervous, but not that bad. But the idea of singing in front of people makes me want to just melt. At least it did for a long time. And then I had sort of, like, my first jab at it, and I was like, that was horrible.
Betty Dannewitz [00:03:34]:
I can't wait to do it again. And then what I found is that when you get a bunch of people together, they don't even have to know each other, and they can have a great time, because music sort of creates this community. Right. So, most recently, when we were at Devlearn in Las Vegas, I set up a private karaoke room, which is really the best way to go. But you and I sing in a public one, which works, too. It's fine. But private karaoke, you don't have to wait for everybody else. And I had probably 30 people there from all over the globe, all different areas of L and D.
Betty Dannewitz [00:04:13]:
A lot of them didn't even know each other. And they come in and they sing songs, and all of a sudden, they're, like, singing together. Because we all know these songs and we all have these deep connections. So it's a really fun way to kind of build camaraderie, even with people you don't necessarily know very well. And one thing that's nice about the private room versus the public is in the public room. Other people sing with you and get really close to you, but you don't know them at all.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:41]:
Yes. Yeah. It can get a little weird in the public places.
Betty Dannewitz [00:04:46]:
It was very weird when we sang at that one place in Alexandria. There was a lot of strangers and touching.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:56]:
Very close.
Betty Dannewitz [00:04:57]:
You should back up, buddy.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:58]:
Yeah. Very close quarters. But that's part of the experience, too. But, yeah, you're right. It can be really just the ultimate icebreaker to really give people a chance to get to know one another. And I love how you just mentioned how it sounds like it was almost like a personal skill building activity for you of breaking through some kind of barriers. That's neat. Very cool.
Betty Dannewitz [00:05:24]:
I mean, we all have this thing that we're afraid to do that we've made huge in our head, and then you do it one day and you're like, oh, that really wasn't that bad. I'll just pick a different song next time. Which is what I did. It's super fun, actually. My daughter turned 21 this year, and we booked a private room and took a bunch of our family and her friends up to do karaoke, and they were like, who are you, Mom? I'm like, this is so much fun. Here, pick a song. And we sang for, like, 3 hours. And it was great.
Betty Dannewitz [00:05:58]:
We had a good time.
Matt Gjertsen [00:05:59]:
That's awesome. Well, you're slowly selling me on it more and more. This is great. Well, to get into kind of the topic of the day, like I mentioned in the intro, I'm getting really excited about VR. And honestly, more specifically, Ar. I think that those mixed reality experiences are really going to be the future. But I've always been interested in it, but I've never really experienced it until very recently. How long have you been playing around with this stuff, both semi seriously and seriously?
Betty Dannewitz [00:06:35]:
Yeah, about five years, 2018. So that's five years. So I went to my first conference ever, which was realities 360. It doesn't exist anymore, but it was part of the guild, the learning Guild, and out in San Jose, California. And what had happened was, and I don't think you've heard this story, so I'm going to go ahead and tell it to you. What had happened was, I was working for Ally Financial, and we had a meeting, both myself and my boss, with the head of the department, and they were like, hey, what are you doing that's innovative? And we were like, sometimes we bring donuts to class.
Matt Gjertsen [00:07:14]:
We're thinking about doing elearning.
Betty Dannewitz [00:07:18]:
And she was like, you need to do something that's innovative. Maybe something like, I don't know, augmented reality. And she was a very forward thinking executive. And so we were like, okay, sure, we can look into that. So I literally went back to my desk and Googled, what is augmented reality? Because I didn't know what that was. And I was like, oh, well, this is Snapchat. And I was like, what am I going to do with face filters when I'm trying to teach insurance operations? Yes. It's as boring as it sounds, even for the people that do it.
Betty Dannewitz [00:07:52]:
They're like, this is awful. I'm like, I know. So anyways, that kind of took us down this path of going to the conference. And I walked in, and there was sort of this pre conference workshop on getting started with AR. Perfect. We sit down, and there's this guy at the front of the room, and he's got, like, a chin beard and, like, a black shirt on, and he's, like, messing around with the tech at the front. So I thought what anybody would think, oh, it's the IT guy, right? He's getting us all set up. And then he turned around, he's like, hello, everyone.
Betty Dannewitz [00:08:26]:
My name is Destri, and I'll be your facilitator today. And I looked at my boss, and.
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:30]:
I was like, okay, this is getting real.
Betty Dannewitz [00:08:32]:
And so we sat through Destri's class, and unfortunately, like so many people, we like laptops that were locked down by our organization. So we could only get so far in learning how to build it. But afterwards, I made sure I was like, okay, I need to be friends with him, because, number one, he looks like the 90s. Like, if you were to close your eyes and imagine the see nestery, am I wrong?
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:55]:
No, you are not wrong.
Betty Dannewitz [00:08:58]:
And then also because I'm going to need his help, because I'm going to get only so far, and I'm like, I don't know what to do. Somebody help me. And so that's kind of where it started. So I followed him around and bothered him a lot, and he helped me actually report out what I learned from that conference in an augmented reality experience. And that's when I fell in love with it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:20]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:09:20]:
And I was like, this is the shit. We have to do this. Yeah. And so I started working on implementing it right there at Ally Financial in the insurance area.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:32]:
So when you say you reported out on the conference using it, what did you do? What did you create?
Betty Dannewitz [00:09:38]:
So I created an experience. I wonder if it's got to still be around somewhere.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:42]:
Probably.
Betty Dannewitz [00:09:42]:
I created an experience where when you scanned it, it opened up a menu with multiple different places you could tap within. Those had video report outs of what we learned. And I did the videos in Snapchat. So they were augmented reality videos at the time. Instagram hadn't even picked up the whole face filters thing yet. At that point, Snapchat was the only one doing so. And then there was, like, a couple of links out to other things we could learn how to do. There was a link to Zapper to be able to sign up for their hobbyist account and things like that.
Betty Dannewitz [00:10:16]:
So it was neat to be able to explain augmented reality with an AR experience.
Matt Gjertsen [00:10:22]:
Yeah. And so you say you scan. So somebody would like, was it like a QR code that somebody would scan with their phone?
Betty Dannewitz [00:10:29]:
Yeah, at the time it was a Zap code. So Zapper used to have their own app. They still do have it, but they also now do web AR, which you can do with the QR code. So at the time, it was the Zapper app and the Zapper code.
Matt Gjertsen [00:10:41]:
Okay, awesome. Well, that was actually the next thing that I wanted to ask you about, because Zapper, I learned about through you, one of your posts when you were, I think, speaking at a conference for them, whether it's them or what's the current state of tools in terms of if I want to build stuff for AR, how much is out there? How easy is it?
Betty Dannewitz [00:11:05]:
Well, it depends on who you are. Are you in marketing? Are you in learning? Are you in game design? Right. So in learning, we have a budget of $8.
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:18]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:11:18]:
And that's it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:20]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:11:21]:
Everyone has $8. You need to spend it. Right. I would say that we always say that we're a product agnostic, but we definitely have favorites. And Zapper is a favorite because of two reasons. One, it's cheap and easy. Those are really important characteristics in all the things I do say, feel it's got to be cheap and easy. And then also they have sort of like this mission to democratize AR.
Betty Dannewitz [00:11:50]:
So to me, that means it's going to stay cheap and easy. They want everyone to be able to do it. And I think that's pretty amazing because that shows that they're not. I mean, I know they have to make money, but I don't feel like they're necessarily, that's the only driver, which is great. That really lines up with my values. So I'm a big fan of Zapper. There are other ones out there. Wikitude, I think, is what it's called.
Betty Dannewitz [00:12:15]:
Blip R now has a consumer facing app opportunity, Bundle AR. But I'll tell you, they all vary in the skill set that you need to actually build in them. And then they all vary in price. Like dramatically.
Matt Gjertsen [00:12:29]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:12:29]:
Like Zapper, you can start out like around $800 us a year, which, by the way, is way cheaper than storyline or beyond or any other of those tools. But then you go to Bundle AR and it's like 275 a month ish. Please see their website because I might be wrong about that. That's a massive difference. And so it really depends on what's the investment you want to make, do you want to build it or do you want somebody else to build it? Do you want to upskill your folks? I know Zapper offers a. I feel like this is a commercial for them. Sorry, that's just. I wasn't trying to do that.
Betty Dannewitz [00:13:10]:
But it's working out. BuT they have like a class, especially for AR and learning, which I built and myself, industry teach to kind of help people think through and ideate. How can you use AR and learning solutions and then how do you actually build them? So there's lots of opportunity. If you're a unity developer, you can develop AR in unity. That's a thing. But that is, again, like a completely different skill set and unlikely to be found in learning or marketing, for that matter. Is that helpful?
Matt Gjertsen [00:13:40]:
Yes. No, I think it is. I mean, let's keep going down this path. You just mentioned all the different ways that you can do it, because I think that's one of the things that there's probably two limitations that people have when it comes to AR. One is a skill set or an uncertainty about the skill set required. But then there's also just the imagination of it, of what am I going to do with this? And I think before the show, I was mentioning. So when I present at ATD technology here in a few months, specifically to help me get.
Betty Dannewitz [00:14:12]:
Hold on. With Lavar Burton?
Matt Gjertsen [00:14:14]:
Yes, with Lavar Burton. Absolutely.
Betty Dannewitz [00:14:16]:
It's very important that we let people know that Lavar Burton will be there.
Matt Gjertsen [00:14:19]:
So you should come, everybody, if you haven't yet, go check out the ATD technology conference. It's going to be in LA this year, which means it's going to be awesome. And our main host is LaVar Burton.
Betty Dannewitz [00:14:33]:
He's the closing keynote. I'm going to introduce him. They're going to have to call the cops. It's going to be amazing.
Matt Gjertsen [00:14:38]:
It's going to be great. Yes. Okay, so everybody come be there for that. And it's technology, right? Like, it's meant to be kind of forward thinking. And so even though it's not the primary part, it's not what I'm talking about. I want to include some AR. I've been thinking about including AR in it so that people could pull up their phone and there could be some other element to the experience that they could have. And that's super practical.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:02]:
That's the kind of thing that any facilitator could do. So what are some various ways that people can think about, or that I can think about how to incorporate something AR related into a facilitated experience. And then what does it take to create that?
Betty Dannewitz [00:15:19]:
Let's workshop yours right now. What are you speaking on?
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:22]:
So I am speaking on basically how to make the most out of user generated content. So how learning teams can create systems and practices to get more out of the content that the rest of the company creates.
Betty Dannewitz [00:15:37]:
So give me an example. I mean, I think I understand, but I want to make sure the people listening do.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:42]:
So there's going to be kind of a whole series of steps that we walk through where part of it is creating good templates for people to create content out in the company so that they're not starting from scratch and they're sending you these really horrible slide decks with different fonts and everything like that. So it starts by just making templates. It then also is making, training them how to train. So creating kind of like a train the trainer course that you can then facilitate for everybody. And then creating a system for intake, evaluation and publishing so that it's not just all these random questions or presentations or whatever that get shot at you, but so that you have an actual systematic way of processing through them.
Betty Dannewitz [00:16:26]:
So a couple of ideas come to mind. One is the templates. So the templates, I'm assuming, are some sort of document.
Matt Gjertsen [00:16:32]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:16:33]:
Okay, so in this document you could create basically a digital overlay so that when you scanned, like, let's say we put the QR code on the document. When you scan the QR code, it reveals the document completed so that they can see what good looks like and then they can take that with them. And every time they look at a template, they can see what good looks like when they scan it. That's one way. Another way would be if you wanted to provide them additional resources on sort of like the steps, so you could create an AR experience which has the steps, and then inside each step might be a short video of you explaining it one more time and then links to any external templates or resources that might help them. And if you give that to them on some sort of card or put it on a website that they can go and access, because the thing is, once they scan it and leave, if they close that browser, they can't get back to it. You have to give them that trigger, you have to give them that code. So however you can do that, and if you wanted to do it on paper, like I said, you could give it to them something the size of a business card, or you can put it on your website so that they can just go to iherdmatspeak.com whatever, and scan it.
Betty Dannewitz [00:17:45]:
That's not available, by the way.
Matt Gjertsen [00:17:47]:
But it would be cool.
Betty Dannewitz [00:17:49]:
It would be cool, and they could scan it, and then they can get those resources anytime that they need them.
Matt Gjertsen [00:17:55]:
So, in terms of the what is possible, again, thinking about in a facilitated session, let's say I have a code that can get scanned up on the screen. What can I create to pop up? Is it just something that comes up on their phone? Or can it be kind of like you think about with the mixed reality, like glasses, where it's like you're seeing through your phone camera and there's something additional out there in the space, what's possible?
Betty Dannewitz [00:18:24]:
Both things are possible. What would be really fun is what we call, a lot of times we call it the CEO experience or the trainer on the table. So basically, you take a video with a green screen background, and then when you put it into Zapper, you remove the background. So now it's an Alpha video, and we can actually set it up so that it looks like when they scan you pop up on their desk and you're about six inches tall, and you talk to them about whatever it is you want to remind them of, you can point at different buttons that are also on the screen, that type of thing. That one's always super fun. People love the idea of having that little pocket sized trainer.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:04]:
Yeah.
Betty Dannewitz [00:19:05]:
That's another way that you could do it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:06]:
I'm thinking John Hammond in Jurassic park when he's like, talk into himself.
Betty Dannewitz [00:19:12]:
Yes. Do you have that hat? Because if you do, that could be amazing.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:19]:
Yeah.
Betty Dannewitz [00:19:22]:
So there's lots of things that you could do. It's really a matter of thinking about what it is that you want to be more dynamic in your session, and then what do you want them to take with them that we could put into sort of an AR experience.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:37]:
And I think that's the key thing. And I think this comes up with all technologies. This is huge in AI right now of people using AI more as a buzword than as a thing that it's a neat idea or tool, but they haven't really thought about. Okay, but what are we really trying to solve here? And so with AR on the point you were just making, how can we think about where this really has added value? The little six inch me on the table is really cool, but how do I know if that's adding something?
Betty Dannewitz [00:20:23]:
Sure.
Matt Gjertsen [00:20:23]:
How can I think through that?
Betty Dannewitz [00:20:27]:
Okay, back it up. So one thing that I have done in the last five years is ask that question. Right. Because I know that I could make an interactive business card, which is great, except we don't really give out business cards anymore. I could put it on my signature, my email signature, and then people can scan it and get a personalized message for me that increases engagement and makes your first interaction with me even more dynamic. But I think you're looking for something a little deeper. And what I would say is this. I would say that AR is great for adding context.
Betty Dannewitz [00:21:00]:
It's great for providing just in time learning. So, for example, a buddy of mine, his name is Mike Peacock, I've told this story, like, four times this month. So if y'all heard it, sorry, here it comes again. He works for Aristocrat gaming in Las Vegas. And they make, you guessed it, slot machines, which are not. There's no slot on them anymore, but nevertheless, games. So they've been using AR for many years, at least five years. And a couple of ways that they do it is, one, they put codes inside the cabinet.
Betty Dannewitz [00:21:31]:
So that's what the slot machine is called. It's actually in a cabinet. And so you open up the game cabinet, and inside, they can scan. And basically, instead of carrying around a user manual, they can access quite quickly through augmented reality what it is that they need. And if there's a piece or a part that they need to be able to see, there can be a 3D rendering of it that they can see right there in their space, move it around, look at it, and be able to sort of diagnose the problem in that way. They also use it for their customers. So they put augmented reality codes on poker chips and give them out to their clients, so that when their clients have a broken machine, they can scan it to, number one, either troubleshoot it themselves, so that gives them some options for troubleshooting it. And then two, how do you contact us so that they're not trying to remember? They don't got to Google it.
Betty Dannewitz [00:22:25]:
They just scan this poker chip, which, by the way, their customers now collect because they love them. They've become like a collectible.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:33]:
Awesome.
Betty Dannewitz [00:22:33]:
So they use it both internally and externally facing to provide context, provide step by step instructions, just in time learning those types of things. I think the fun part is that we can add more dynamic. We can create 360 virtual tours with augmented reality, and nobody ever has to put a headset on. They can just scan and look around through their phone. Destri and I did one for ATD, where we got to go and visit the Alamo, which we didn't actually get to do because COVID had stolen our conference experience, that was sort of the whole ATD scavenger hunt theme, and we got to go visit the Alamo. And now every time we talk about that, we get to talk about the basement and how there's no basement at the Alamo, and only Gen Xers get that. And everyone else just kind of glosses over, like, what is she talking about?
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:24]:
As an elder millennial. I still get that joke.
Betty Dannewitz [00:23:28]:
I'm not a millennial, but I do love that you think I am. I'm very flattered that you think I'm a millennial.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:34]:
Yeah. And just to put a point on it, just in case anybody's wondering, the great thing about all this stuff is that there isn't. Maybe it used to, but it doesn't require an extra app or anything. It's just your phone camera that's accessing the information. And so it can all be seamless.
Betty Dannewitz [00:23:53]:
Yeah. It's called web AR. So basically, you scan a QR code, which anyone who's lived through the pandemic knows what a QR code is, and you scan the QR code, and it launches a website, which then that website launches the experience.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:07]:
Yeah. I'll never forget. I think probably one of the first times I ever saw a QR code used for training, and it was probably kind of AR as well, is it was a QR code that was put up on the wall next to a thermostat in the office, and it said, scan this to learn how to fix Thermostat. And you would scan it, and it was a picture of the facilities guy going. Or it was a video of him going, don't touch the thermostat.
Betty Dannewitz [00:24:34]:
That's fantastic. Because people will scan that shit.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:37]:
Oh, yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:24:38]:
Oh, yeah. They see a code, they pull out their phone. They're like, I wonder what this is.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:42]:
Yeah, exactly.
Betty Dannewitz [00:24:43]:
That's amazing.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:44]:
Yeah. Okay.
Betty Dannewitz [00:24:45]:
Also, I hated that about working in an office, is that I could not control the thermostat. And I was always blazing hot.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:52]:
It's always too hot or too cold in every office in the world. It just is a rule.
Betty Dannewitz [00:24:56]:
Yes, it's true.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:57]:
Everything's on or off. Awesome. Okay, well, I think that's helpful. That's helpful for me. I love that idea of thinking through. So it's really good at giving additional context. It's really great for just in time learning. That's, I think, the future of this, especially, I do believe, when we can start to mix generative AI to create AR experiences, like on the fly.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:24]:
That'll be really cool. For just in time stuff.
Betty Dannewitz [00:25:27]:
Don't think that's not in progress. Oh, I'm sure somebody's working on that 100%.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:34]:
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And the name of the game with all this is going to be just how quickly can you put it into a form factor that is both easy to access and fast enough that it can be real time?
Betty Dannewitz [00:25:48]:
Because we got to have everything really fast.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:49]:
Yeah, exactly.
Betty Dannewitz [00:25:50]:
Super fast.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:51]:
Yeah. Anything else people should be thinking about? If they're just diving into AR, what are common things that you see? Any other common things, questions that people have or mistakes that people make?
Betty Dannewitz [00:26:06]:
Well, I'll say a couple of things. One, it's not as difficult as you think. Two, it's cheap. You can actually open a hobbyist account and prototype, like up to five experiences for nothing, and the account stays open forever. So once you start actually applying them to your learning experiences, you'll need to get a license. But Zapper lets you get in there and just play with it for a minute and see if it's going to work for you, which I think is amazing. Think of it as just like every other tool in your tool belt. Right? So we have lots of tools.
Betty Dannewitz [00:26:41]:
We have storyline. We have video editing software. We have sometimes video recording software. We have animated videos. We have micro learning. Right? We have Adobe. Here's the thing. If you can create a PowerPoint slide, you can create a simple augmented reality experience.
Betty Dannewitz [00:27:00]:
You already have the skill set. I'm going to say it one more time. You already have it. Everything transfers. If you know how to work Adobe programs, you can make a complicated one, because Adobe is complicated as shit.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:12]:
Yeah.
Betty Dannewitz [00:27:13]:
I have a hate love relationship with Adobe. I absolutely hate the process, but I typically love what comes out of it. But the process makes me want. There's a reason I'm going bald back here. It's Adobe. Right? But if you can do that, you can make it an even more complicated one. So you already have the skills that you need to do it. But AR and just XR in general, that stuff all begins in design.
Betty Dannewitz [00:27:37]:
So what you don't want to do is roll out a program. You can do this, but it's not the most efficient way. And then go back and say, oh, I bet you I can make this AR. And with your existing stuff, that might be a good way actually to get started. But going forward, as you're building out your design, be thinking about, what could I do? Where in this design could I take some contextual information and make it more engaging, make it more dynamic, make it so that they are breaking their concentration with the elearning that I'm in and using their mobile device, which, by the way, they love. They love it. We are all in love with our mobile devices.
Matt Gjertsen [00:28:16]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:28:17]:
So now you're having them take something that they love. They're looking at it. They're learning. They're getting a dopamine hit. They're getting the blue light effect, and then they're going back to their elearning, and they can't wait to scan again because they've gotten that sort of hit from the dopamine. So I think we should capitalize on that. Right. Look, we're not addicting people to like, they're already addicted.
Betty Dannewitz [00:28:42]:
We're just taking advantage of that addiction and using it to help them learn better. So that's kind of the things that I typically find myself saying a lot, is that you already have the skills to do this. It's cheaper and easier than you think. And let's break that concentration so that they can refresh. Think of it every time they go into their phone. It's like a refresh. One other thing I'll mention is we were talking about great ways to use it. So context, just in time learning.
Betty Dannewitz [00:29:08]:
I would also say knowledge checks. Now, notice I didn't say skill checks, but knowledge checks. Skill checks, maybe knowledge checks for sure. So if you just want to check in and say, give them a five question quiz to say, hey, did you hear this? Do you remember what you learned a minute ago? This is a great way to, again, take them out of whatever they were learning it from and do it in AR. And then you can be more dynamic in the type of rewards you give. For example, giving, like, a non credentialed badge so they can take a selfie and an augmented reality selfie so that there's digital content overlaid, like says, I passed the test or whatever, and then they can post that on social. And that, again, is activating that dopamine. I'm doing it down here, but it's really up here.
Betty Dannewitz [00:29:57]:
But it makes your heart feel good. We're sort of capitalizing on that. And the fact that people love to take selfies. They all do.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:05]:
Yes.
Betty Dannewitz [00:30:05]:
Even the people that say they don't destri. Everyone.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:08]:
Everyone loves to take selfies.
Betty Dannewitz [00:30:10]:
Yeah.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:11]:
Speaking of, since in learning, we're obsessed with tracking everything. How easy for something like that. How easy is it to kind of close that? Because I'm imagining one of the great things. Listening to what you were just saying, I feel like one of the great things about it is it doesn't have to be tied to an LMS. You don't have to send an email, go log into the LMS. You just send them an email with a QR code and let them do the thing on their phone. But then how easy is it to kind of close that loop and track it somewhere?
Betty Dannewitz [00:30:41]:
Great question. So, Zapper, just a month ago released Scorm, so you can now export no way for real analytics to Scorm. And you look like you're going to cry, like you're so happy. Yeah. So you can now export analytics to Scorm. And so in the same way that you might use an external vendor to export their stuff, it's the same idea. You download a report, you upload it into your LMS. So they've got that.
Betty Dannewitz [00:31:08]:
There's also good old fashioned XaPI has always been available with augmented reality, but that scorm thing, that's a big deal. And I remember having a conversation with them about a year ago, and they were showing myself and destri some of the things that they are coming down the pipe. And one of them was screen only. So basically, you scan, and whatever you put is just stuck to the screen, so like a menu. And then they were talking about Scorm. And I said, do you guys understand that if you can get screen only and scorm, AR goes from being part of a blended learning experience to being a learning experience, the whole thing could be an AR. And I'm like, I get to now no longer have to say it's part of a blended, but that it is its own experience. And I got to say that twice now.
Betty Dannewitz [00:31:59]:
Well, three times, if you count this. And every time I said it, I get goosebumps, because I'm like, if we could grab onto this, this could accelerate it. So that AR is soon equal to other modalities, like video elearning, micro learning. It's just another option.
Matt Gjertsen [00:32:18]:
Yeah, so talk. I want to stick on that point for just a second with the stick on the screen. What do you mean by that? So, like, you scan something and just. It's your whole screen? Is that all you.
Betty Dannewitz [00:32:30]:
You know, when you look at an Instagram story and it just fills up your whole screen? It's the same thing. It fills the whole screen.
Matt Gjertsen [00:32:39]:
Oh, so it removes any kind of browser.
Betty Dannewitz [00:32:43]:
You're not seeing the environment, and then something in there activates the rest of the experience. So you tap on this or swipe this, and then it'll move on to whatever else you build in that experience. So it's the beginning, just like the home page of any elearning. And then the scorm allows us to actually track that they completed all the pieces within the experience.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:05]:
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I think earlier, the reason why I was having such a reaction to that is because everybody complains about scorm, and it's fine to complain about it because it does have its limitations. But the reality is that 99% of organizations have a learning management system. They don't have the resources to do a lot with Xapi. They need to just have the basic reporting solved. And there's so many really cool learning applications that are getting built out there that aren't able to cross talk back to a learning management system. So it's neat and cool, but at the end of the day, if a giant part of my job is still compliance and making sure boxes are checked, if I can't check a box, I'm just not going to do it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:54]:
I'm just not going to use that other thing. That's awesome. That's awesome.
Betty Dannewitz [00:33:59]:
Yeah.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:59]:
Okay.
Betty Dannewitz [00:34:00]:
Yeah.
Matt Gjertsen [00:34:01]:
Well, you have got me really excited, even more excited than I was. So thank you for that. Good to close out. We do have three questions that we ask every guest. The first one is, what is one book or podcast that everyone should listen to and why?
Betty Dannewitz [00:34:17]:
Well, absolutely. Check out the if you ask Betty podcast.
Matt Gjertsen [00:34:20]:
Absolutely.
Betty Dannewitz [00:34:21]:
I don't know if you've listened at Matt, but especially right now, because Loki season two, the finale, just ended. Don't say shh. I have not watched it yet.
Matt Gjertsen [00:34:33]:
I haven't.
Betty Dannewitz [00:34:33]:
No sPoilers.
Matt Gjertsen [00:34:34]:
I haven't either. I'm waiting for my daughter and I are finally getting through the Marvel movies, and so then I'm going to have her watch Loki season one, and then we can watch Loki season two.
Betty Dannewitz [00:34:46]:
I thought we were going to be friends. That's a bummer. No, it's fine. Anyways. But we did do five episodes on how Loki is every learner. It's probably my favorite series. So check that out, especially if you're a Loki fan. The beginning of season three, there's three episodes called I Have questions about accessibility, and I brought in a lot of experts from around the globe and really great conversations around, what is accessibility? What does lnd need to do with this? And then the third one is all about it's folks that need accessible resources and what is it like for them when they don't have it, and then what is it like for them when they do? And so it's real world folks that are in learning application of this is why it's important.
Betty Dannewitz [00:35:42]:
Those are some good ones. Other podcasts. Well, there's a couple others in L. D. That I think are super cool. The L. D. Hot seat with Russell.
Betty Dannewitz [00:35:53]:
I love Russell. He's love you, man.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:55]:
Russell's a great. Yeah. Recent, recent acquaintance. Really? I really like him.
Betty Dannewitz [00:35:59]:
He's the cool cat. Everyone needs to know. Russell, sweep. Look him up right now. Follow him, other pocket. Like, I love smartless because they're just not. You don't know that smartless is Jason Bateman, Will Arnett and Sean Hayes, and they're all hysterical in and of their own right. I may or may not have a long rooted crush on Jason Bateman.
Betty Dannewitz [00:36:25]:
It's possible, but his dry humor is amazing. But, yeah. So that one's really cool. Books. Everyone should read. There's so many right now.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:38]:
So many. Look at me.
Betty Dannewitz [00:36:41]:
Yeah. And I like that they're rainbow color. You get the rainbow thing going on. That's cool. I'll tell you what I'm reading right now. I just started Adam Grant's new hidden talents. No, that's not it. Hidden potential, maybe.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:57]:
Okay.
Betty Dannewitz [00:36:58]:
It's Adam Grant's new book.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:59]:
Adam Grant's new book.
Betty Dannewitz [00:37:00]:
And my understanding is there's a lot in about imposter syndrome, and that's a passionate subject of mine. So excited about that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:37:09]:
Okay. For you, what is one skill that has most helped you be successful in your life?
Betty Dannewitz [00:37:20]:
Building relationships.
Matt Gjertsen [00:37:22]:
Okay.
Betty Dannewitz [00:37:24]:
Yeah. Because I'll tell you, networking is a very important thing. I do it probably for different reasons than others. Like, a lot of folks network so that when they need something, they have somebody that they can reach out to. I love to get to know people and spend time with them and try to find ways to help them find joy. Like karaoke, which I'm not sure if you were. I don't know if you were having a good time, but I had a great time.
Matt Gjertsen [00:37:51]:
I had a great time. I had a blast.
Betty Dannewitz [00:37:53]:
Okay, good.
Matt Gjertsen [00:37:54]:
Yes. No, I loved good.
Betty Dannewitz [00:37:55]:
That's what I was hoping for. That's what I would say is just sort of building relationships. Maintaining those relationships has definitely helped me be successful, for sure.
Matt Gjertsen [00:38:04]:
Fantastic. And then as someone who has known, worked with, been inside lots of different organizations, what is the most common opportunity you see for organizations to improve talent development?
Betty Dannewitz [00:38:20]:
I think the thing we all need to do is to think differently. And I would say that about think differently about how we solve problems, think differently about how we approach things, like learning how we approach things like employee wellness, because if we keep doing the thing that we've always done, we'll keep getting the results we've always gotten. And it turns out we're not really happy with those results. Like, I haven't met anybody who's super happy with results on any of those things. So we can drop the word innovative all we want, but it's really about thinking differently. I have to change the way that I'm thinking in order to change the way that my organization, like, I think Apple had the think different was a logo or a mantra they had a while back. I'm sure they've let that go now, but really, that's something that I'm striving to do. And AR and VR are a great platform for me.
Betty Dannewitz [00:39:18]:
I even speak about podcasting a lot because I want people to think differently about how they design learning. You don't have to start in storyline. You can. You totally can. There's fun things to do in storyline. You don't have to start there. You could start in seven taps. You could start in an AR experience.
Betty Dannewitz [00:39:36]:
You could start and make sure that every course you create has a practice in VR, it's possible to do those things. But if you're not thinking differently, if you're always thinking, well, okay, cookie cutter, here we go. Let's do the next thing. You're never going to get there.
Matt Gjertsen [00:39:50]:
There is a lot of inertia in all things in life. It's hard to judge whether there's a lot of movement or the tides are turning or whatever you want to say about it. It feels like there's a lot of energy and discussion about doing L and D differently, but then we're in the middle of that discussion, kind of. So it's kind of sometimes hard to judge. Is that a real thing that's happening? Is there a real change that's happening, or is it just that there's always people talking about change?
Betty Dannewitz [00:40:26]:
This is a sensitive answer.
Matt Gjertsen [00:40:27]:
Okay.
Betty Dannewitz [00:40:28]:
So I think that there is a true desire, especially on the side of creators, to do things differently. Not just because we're bored, because we are, but because we see the value and the impact it makes if we try to move the way that we create learning to be closer to the way that we learn at home versus the way that we learn at work. Because now that we actually, most of us work at home. Well, a lot of us, at least all of us did at one point, but a lot of us work from home. We're starting to see more of a stark difference between the way that we learn at work and the way that we learn at home. And so if we want to bridge that gap, I think there's definitely a deep desire. The problem is that thinking differently doesn't make any money.
Matt Gjertsen [00:41:18]:
Yeah.
Betty Dannewitz [00:41:19]:
So it's the same story, different day, same chapter, different characters. That's always going to be our fight. Because, again, L and D has a budget of $8 and they only bring in $0. So how can we talk anybody into letting us do Something that costs more than. And a lot of it is fear of change. A lot of his fear of change. A lot of his fear is that. But a lot of it just comes down to money.
Betty Dannewitz [00:41:49]:
It doesn't make money. And when I think about that, sometimes I get mad, because I'm like, what am I doing? I get mad, why am I even here? But I'm here because I want people to think differently. Someday, augmented reality will have the same seat at the table as elearning. Because if we think about it, elearning took a long time to catch on, a long time to be democratized to the point where everyone can kind of do it right. It was like a 20 year run before it became commonplace, normal. And we're not 20 years in with AR, not in learning anyways, so we've got some time. But that's sort of my take on that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:42:36]:
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, thank you so much for this, Betty. It really helped me think through kind of how I want to use this stuff. You have some great insights and thoughts on just how to get started with this because I am at the very beginning of this journey, so I'm excited to have people like you around me to help me figure it out. Thank you so much for your time. I'll definitely link in the show notes to if you ask Betty, like you said, great podcast to listen to. Highly recommend it. I hope you have enjoy the rest of your Friday and I hope you have a good weekend.
Betty Dannewitz [00:43:11]:
Thanks. You too. Bye.
Matt Gjertsen [00:43:13]:
Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you liked the discussion, make sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. As a reminder, if your team is struggling keeping up with the training development demands of your organization, we want to help. Better Everyday Studios is a full service instructional design team that can help you with everything from ideation to actual content creation and delivery. Please reach out to us using the link in the episode notes below. Have a great day.
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