How to Apply the Lessons of TikTok to Your Training w/Vanessa Alzate
Episode Overview
In this illuminating episode of Making Better, hosts Matt Gjertsen and Mark Vogel dive into the pivotal role of debriefing and feedback in shaping a productive corporate culture. They explore the necessity of separating individual performance from personal worth, and the significance of healthy conflict in learning from failures. Drawing on their military backgrounds, the duo emphasizes the high stakes of giving feedback and fostering a learning culture for continuous improvement. Tune in for a robust discussion on leading with empathy, improving team dynamics, and why taking smart risks in line with organizational values is crucial for success.
About Vanessa Alzate
Vanessa Alzate is the Founder and CEO of Anchored Training, a digital media development company that helps create eLearning, online videos, instructor-led training, and more. Recently, she founded Armada Learning Network, a holding company with portfolio companies niched in learning and development such as consulting, developing custom training, and training evaluation.
Make sure to connect with Vanessa on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessa-alzate/
Full Transcript
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Vanessa Alzate [00:00:00]:
We look at LinkedIn, and we look at, like, you know, the folks that are, you know, the thought leaders and this and that, but we're not seeing is all of the work they took to actually get there. They just put themselves out there. They just kept recording. They just kept trying. They just kept doing. And so, okay, maybe you're not gonna hit it out of the park your first ten times, but the 11th time could be that time. So if you know in your gut that what it is that you're doing is. Is worth it and what's best for the organization, for your learners, keep trying, you know, and that's a huge lesson in and of itself.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:32]:
Hello, and welcome to the making Better podcast, where we talk about how to make ourselves, our teams, and our organizations better. Whether you are a business leader, a talent development professional, or an individual contributor, this show will give you actionable insights to help improve your own performance and the performance of those around you. Our guest today is Vanessa al Zate. Vanessa is the founder and CEO of Anchored Training, a digital media development company that helps create elearning online videos, instructor led training, and more. I've been following her on LinkedIn for quite a while and noticed that she recently started talking a lot about how to apply the lessons of TikTok videos to training. This is something that I'm really passionate about, and so I wanted to have her on to discuss. In today's episode, you can expect to learn what makes short form content so successful, how to convince subject matter experts to cut down the length of training, and what are some of the core concepts that you need to focus on in order to make your training as engaging as a TikTok video? Before we get into the discussion, I do want to remind you to hit like and subscribe. If this is your first time to the show and if you were already subscribed, then if I could please ask, please, please, please to share this show with just one other person.
Matt Gjertsen [00:01:52]:
Because that, after all, is how we grow. I can't tell you how much it means to me. And so with that, let's get into the discussion with Vanessa Alzate. So I want to start with a simple question. Vanessa, do you have a favorite TikTok creator?
Vanessa Alzate [00:02:06]:
Yes, Miss Excel 1000%.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:12]:
That's hilarious. And, you know, listeners might not understand why I'm starting with that, but, you know, when I watch your feed and some of the talks you've given recently, you've been talking a lot about what people can learn from TikTok, what instructional designers can learn from TikTok there's no reason for you to know this, but about six months ago, maybe a year ago, I gave a talk on how to give your training the TikTok treatment. And Miss Excel was, like, my example. So we are definitely in line with this. Why do you think it's so important for people in training to be looking at what's happening in TikTok or social media in general?
Vanessa Alzate [00:02:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it has helped to democratize learning and it really has helped folks to realize things don't have to be perfect in order for you to learn something. So I came from software training. That was my very first role out of college and is still a love. Give me a new software system and I'm going to find the bugs. That's my favorite thing to do. And so in watching this Excel, you don't see the clicks really, right. You don't see, like, you just see what happens.
Vanessa Alzate [00:03:24]:
Like, you will see a highlight where things are supposed to happen, the formula pop up on the screen, and it is everything that I have been taught not to do or that people don't want to see. Right. People want to see the mouse moving across the screen to hit the button. They actually don't care about that. TikTok has proven to us they don't need to know that. What they want to know is what are the steps. And that's why I love and anybody that can make Excel seem fun to me is like, that's, that's my people. That's who I need to talk to.
Vanessa Alzate [00:03:57]:
I need to know more about what's your magic with something as what we think of as zoom in? Dane, everybody knows how to use it as, like, Excel, but it's really not, you know, as widely used.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:08]:
I've been experiencing this hardcore recently with PowerPoint on YouTube and YouTube shorts because the nice thing about it, like you said, it doesn't take the time. I mean, you see what happens, but it's not very clearly following everything, but what you see is the result. At least that's what I see really clearly when I'm like, wow, that slide, you made that in PowerPoint. What? That's crazy. That looks so good. And it inspires me to want to learn more. And I probably, maybe I don't get everything I need in that 62nd video, but it inspires me to dig deeper and to, like, follow that account and watch it again and see that same thing in an expanded version. So it's like, it gets me in the funnel almost from like, a sales point of view.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:55]:
Yeah. So what do you think? You know, you mentioned that it really showed you, you know, some of these accounts are doing everything that you were taught not to do. Could we go through that a little bit more of, like, how do people start to make this transition of thinking like a creator when making training?
Vanessa Alzate [00:05:15]:
Yeah. So, for me, I think when you think of a creator, your end goal often is the viewer, and you want to make this so relatable, they continue to follow. It feels like. Like you're walking alongside of them. Whereas from an instructional design perspective, we don't do that as well. I think our intentions are to do that, but we'll start things with. Welcome to Excel 101. Here are the learning objectives.
Vanessa Alzate [00:05:47]:
You never start with that already. Right, exactly. I don't want to take that. And to your point, to get them into the funnel, like, that's what we need to be thinking about. Right. People buy these huge libraries. They invest in LinkedIn learning. Why aren't people using them? What's your funnel to get them into it.
Vanessa Alzate [00:06:09]:
Right. And that's where these TikTok things can happen. And when we talk about. I talk about repurposing content, TikTok style. Right. I'll take my longer training. I'll chop it up, and then that's what I'm gonna entice people to come in with, and that's what people are going to recall and remember. So I think there's those parts of it, and for me, too, it's the reminder, when I watch a TikTok video, there's all of them have three things.
Vanessa Alzate [00:06:35]:
A hook, something that got me to want to watch it. It's got its content, and it's got its call to action. That's the magic formula, and that's the formula that we need to be following. Right. So, like, I just went through this training, and you. We usually end with a thank you and congratulations, not a call to action. Like, okay, what am I supposed to do with this? Right? What's my next step? And so if we can start to build those things in, people can start to feel a little bit more empowered to take action on what they just learned.
Matt Gjertsen [00:07:08]:
Yeah. So breaking that down a little bit. So I love those kind of three things that you mentioned. And so the first thing is thinking about the end user, and, like, why would they want to take this at all? That's, like, kind of a first lesson that we can really learn from creators in getting that hook, getting them in. So that because we're competing with all of these creators, so we need to, like, learn those lessons and see what's making them successful. So having a clear hook of what you're going to get them, bring them in for. The second thing I heard is repurposing. And I love, I love that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:07:45]:
I think, yeah, it's, I mean, especially in any organization which has slack, you know, this is, this is kind of, you know, it really mirrors that idea of learning, you know, getting more connected with marketing and thinking about things from a marketing perspective of, yeah, I love doing that exact same thing. How do you take the longer training, create a 32nd highlight reel or something, some kind of thing, and drop that in a slack channel so that it kind of gets, gets people interested. So there's, how are you gonna hook them is number one. There's, how do you repurpose to, like, get, get the word out there of this training? And then it sounded like what was, the third thing you mentioned was having that clear call to action of making sure there is a direct link. How have you, do you have any examples of how you've seen this done successfully, of how you've transitioned from one thing to another thing?
Vanessa Alzate [00:08:38]:
Yeah. You mean utilizing, like, TikTok videos? So maybe not even.
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:43]:
Maybe not even TikTok videos, but just like, these premises of what makes good TikTok videos and applying them to training?
Vanessa Alzate [00:08:49]:
Yeah, absolutely. So we do, we've had customers that we just look to reframe how it is that they're learning and how it is that they're delivering content. And so we work with a lot of membership organizations that provide educational content, certification programs, things like that. The thing about them is, especially with our most recent case, they may be the most well known in the industry. However, they cannot rest on their laurels, if you will, of like, well, we're the most well known. You know, we constantly have to evolve how it is that they're engaging their learners because, and how they're delivering their content. So it's so lecture based. It was hours and hours of, like, live stream lectures, and it was, it's all medical information.
Vanessa Alzate [00:09:39]:
So, like, wow, that's a lot of content to just be delivering talking head style. And so what we started doing is, you know, chatting with them and recommending, you know, here are some ways that you can break up the content, right. Instead of giving folks everything, let's give it to them into those bite sized chunks. So similar to, like, TikTok style videos, you know, like, just like, maybe not 30 seconds, but, like, we're talking about five minute videos, 20, you know, 15 minutes over as opposed to, like, their three hour training, they take now and then breaking down the language. So when you watch a TikTok video, you are not usually, you feel like they're talking with you like you're their friend, right. Or their colleague or their peer. You don't feel talked down to. And so that is what we're talking about with our customers, too, is how do we reframe our language.
Vanessa Alzate [00:10:30]:
So again, it feels like we're walking alongside with them as opposed to talking to them or at them. So just taking those short steps really does help get people to feel like, I can do this. This is, this is training I'm actually going to stop and pay attention to because it is different, because, and I feel empowered to do something. The other thing I will say is, if you told me probably before 2020, if a customer said we needed to create videos immediately, I'd be like, okay, I'm going to have to find actors. I need the right lighting, I need the right camera and this and that. In order for it to be this perfect situation to record TikTok videos, some of the best ones are not perfect. You know, might just be someone with a very, you know, a plain background or in their car gives the best lighting. So they really, videos can happen anywhere.
Vanessa Alzate [00:11:30]:
What truly matter people care about is the content. So if you start to pull and you think about those nuggets, it helps you to reframe and relook at what it is that you're writing. Like, what is the phrasing? What is the wording I'm using? How am I talking to folks? What is that voice? And then am I breaking it down enough for someone to be able to understand in these little snippet moments?
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:52]:
Yeah, I think that's great advice. Yeah. And I mean, geez, the, you know, the amount of power that is in just a cell phone these days, you know, your standard smartphone in terms of production ability, is, is out of control. And if you, you know, and then if you spend dollar 300 on a little rig that has, you know, a shotgun micro and a light thing, then you've got a movie studio. Yeah, I'd love to break down. I imagine you've gotten some pushback on some of these things from folks. And I'd love to kind of look at a few of the points that you made individually and how you approached that kind of change. One, on just breaking the content down into smaller chunks and kind of trying to approach this idea that it doesn't need to be a three hour lecture.
Matt Gjertsen [00:12:39]:
What pushback? Did you get about that idea, and how did you change minds?
Vanessa Alzate [00:12:45]:
Well, how are they going to know everything if I don't give them all of the information? I'm like, well, yeah, you scaffolding, learning. You know, we're going to build the blocks and we're going to give them little pieces, because then in the same breath, they'll say to. They'll say to me, the people that are taking the training don't have time. They're very busy. If they want to take an asynchronous or watch a video, they're doing it in between seeing patients. I'm like, well, what doctor do you know has 3 hours in between patients? My best friend's my doctor. I get a little bit more time, but she's from one room to another. So we've got to really talk about meeting our learners truly where they're at and helping the learning to fit in, and we can build that.
Vanessa Alzate [00:13:31]:
If you think about their own education, you didn't get all of the information upfront. It was built right. You took your foundation, then you took the next level, and it goes on from there. So taking on that approach, and I think for me, it's always been about understanding who is providing maybe that. Objection. Understanding more about who they are, what's important to them, where their mindset might be at. And now we're framing it right and reframing it in a way that they can understand. So when I was, you know, talking to.
Vanessa Alzate [00:14:01]:
To these stakeholders, well, their doctors. Okay, well, I can lean back into how they probably got their education and was able to relate it there. So they were able to physically relate what it was like for them, and now they're able to put themselves in the mindset of their learners.
Matt Gjertsen [00:14:20]:
Yeah. So that feels like a key component right there, is getting them out of the shoes that their own shoes, the shoes that they were in and how they received everything and trying to put them in the shoes of these news people, because I'm guessing if you just. I feel like one of the simplest questions, whether us as instructional designers or subject matter experts, is just simply like, well, would you want to watch this? That's got to be a pretty easy question to get people to maybe think like, maybe I wouldn't. Do you have people say, like, well, they have to anyway. Is there kind of those hard lines?
Vanessa Alzate [00:14:55]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, there is definitely. There's definitely folks that just like, well, this is how we've always. It's always been done, hasn't failed us yet. And, you know, it depends on who they are, whether or not we can skirt around that. And then sometimes, and I'll get people that will ask, okay, we want to do this. What happens if someone says this to me and I just say, okay, well, then you don't have to go and eat the elephant, right? You can start small. So start with something small in your team.
Vanessa Alzate [00:15:22]:
Build up the case, build up the data, build up the results on your own, like, in a smaller scale, and then you go back and you present it, and what they really are is truly, we don't know. None of us love change. I mean, I do, actually. I thrive in chaos and change. So, like, I don't put myself in this category. However, most people don't like change. They don't like doing something new or being outside of their comfort zone. And that's really what you're dealing with.
Vanessa Alzate [00:15:46]:
So if you can show people that it actually works, like, and they don't have to be the early adopter because someone else is, and now they're following a plan or a template of how to do it, they're way more comfortable.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:57]:
Yeah, that. I think that sounds. That sounds right. There's always more problems to solve. There's always more stakeholders, and so there is a level of just like, well, let's not try to win this battle right now. Let's go somewhere else for whether it's a different project, a smaller project that we can try to have some wins on. When do you. Maybe there's not a clear answer to this.
Matt Gjertsen [00:16:18]:
When do you decide it's to stop pushing back? Right. When you say, hey, we want to do this new thing, and then you want to have a conversation and see, when do you decide, okay, this person's kind of set in their mind, so we're just going to kind of go with what they want this time and see if we can have some wins somewhere else and then bring that data back for the next project.
Vanessa Alzate [00:16:39]:
I think it varies from person to person, organization to organization. That's like, you know, you knew I was going to say that. That's a stereotypical answer. How much is it going to cost to create this learning? Well, it depends. I would say. I don't honestly push as much as people think that I do, because I think that you. I think you pushing too much will end up any sort of, like, social capital or political capital you have with that person. If you push too much, you will lose it.
Vanessa Alzate [00:17:18]:
So I give it a couple of shots, maybe three, you know, baseball rules, and then I'm gonna. I'm out. I'm not gonna push them, and I don't want to make someone ever uncomfortable, so I go about it that way. But what I will say, Matt, that's been very interesting for me lately, is this huge disparity between who's asking for TikTok related training or, like, you know, how do I do this? Or, like, we want to do more of this versus our individual contributors. People that are coming to me saying, I want to do this, they're all senior level stakeholders. There's obviously some individual contributors and frontline folks, but a lot of vps, CEO's, clos are coming to me, and they're saying, we need to do things differently. And I'm telling my team, we need to do things differently, but I'm getting the same stuff back. And so it's been, yeah, I've noticed it more probably the last two months that we're kind of adjusting some of our sales strategy at anchored.
Vanessa Alzate [00:18:31]:
And so some different conversations I've been a part of very recently, but that's been a very interesting disparity. So I'm like, where is the disconnect actually happening and where. How can I help to fill that gap for them?
Matt Gjertsen [00:18:46]:
Yeah. Have you. Have you gone anywhere, gotten anywhere with kind of understanding that disconnect? Is it a. Is it a time? I mean, I'm sure, again, I'm sure this depends, but are you primarily seeing, like, is it a time thing where people don't feel like they have the time to do something different? Is it a skill thing? Is it a trust thing where maybe they don't. They don't feel like they can really go and do that thing?
Vanessa Alzate [00:19:09]:
I would say it's all three. So it's definitely a skill thing. And just not being able to really think outside the box, it's not necessarily also an understanding. So I got a big objection. I get is, well, we can't use TikTok. You know, we're government or, like, security.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:24]:
Got it.
Vanessa Alzate [00:19:25]:
So that is trying to understand kind of that you don't need to use that. It's pulling. The inspiration is definitely another one. So it's definitely all three, and it just depends.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:38]:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, so then going back again to this idea of different things, different reframes, and the pushback that you're getting. What about this idea of it doesn't need to be perfect and trying to convince people to. I mean, the back of my. So this is my new better of a day shirts. And on the back, it says, just launch it, because that's my whole thing that I'm always trying to convince people. It's like, stop iterate, stop trying again, stop editing, just put it out there.
Matt Gjertsen [00:20:06]:
What kind of pushback do you get when you say, actually, you don't need actors, you can do it yourself. You don't need a whole production crew. What kind of pushback do you get on that?
Vanessa Alzate [00:20:18]:
Yeah, there is some pushback on the level of, but it's going to be different than what we're totally used to or our current training programs and things like that. And I remind folks, yes, it's going to be different, but how long did that take to launch, you know, and how much time and money was spent going into that one video? Now imagine cutting that launch time in half, and now you're able to get out there and start to get feedback. And because it wasn't the end all, be all perfect. Perfect right now, you can just make those little tweaks. And those little tweaks is what really makes the impact on the organization to really make this. Like, that's what makes it perfect. And so if you can reframe in that way, I feel like that has been super successful for them to understand, like, okay, we can try it a little bit differently. And then sometimes I like sneakily, we'll send stuff to people.
Vanessa Alzate [00:21:18]:
I'm not above sending an Instagram reel. I'm just being like, did you learn something? Was it perfect lighting? Was it a little blurry or shaky? Yes, but you still learn something, so it can be done for you, too.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:31]:
Yep, yep, yep. Awesome. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's just kind of, it doesn't take long for people. Again, it comes back to that kind of reflection piece of, you know, what are the things that you enjoy watching and how much do you care what camera it was shot on or did you notice the lighting angles? I think that that reflection is definitely a really big thing that makes a lot of sense. So I would love, actually, I wasn't expecting to do this, but I'd love to kind of step back for a minute. You've been running anchored training for a while now, right? How long have you been doing your thing?
Vanessa Alzate [00:22:08]:
As my youngest is Gianna's six. Six years.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:12]:
So I wasn't planning on going into this, but you had mentioned, you know, you've been running anchored for a while now. And you get to interface with all these different organizations just from kind of a bigger picture perspective. What are some of the major changes? Like, you know, these short form videos has been one of them. What are some of the major changes you've seen in kind of the id and talent development space over that time?
Vanessa Alzate [00:22:34]:
Yeah. So I would say the changes that I'm starting to see is people are truly investing in their people and they're seeing that. I think they're wanting to, to be clear, and they want to truly provide the resources to help them be better. They just don't know how to do it and how to do it in a phased or economical way that, like would fitness, maybe their budget and things like that, because they know there's a lot of work to be done and it feels very overwhelming. And then I think also what we're seeing is a lot of folks wanting just more understanding that we have a lot on our plates. And so what used to work taking someone out for an entire day to go to training, we can't afford to do that anymore. So how do we fit learning in their work day? Right. And how does it, how does it become not so much of a separate event, but more integrated into what it is that they're doing day to day? And I think, look, we're about to have a hold what we already have a generation, but really thinking about the next generation, I'm already looking at Gen Alpha.
Vanessa Alzate [00:23:49]:
Everyone's over here talking about Gen Z. I'm looking at Gen Alpha already. That generation, all they know is like the YouTube and video and all of that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:58]:
Yes.
Vanessa Alzate [00:23:59]:
That's gonna start to become an expect even more of an expectation.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:03]:
Yeah.
Vanessa Alzate [00:24:04]:
And having these knowledge bases and the ability for them to pull the information that they need when they want it. And it's not a generational thing. That's really what we all just truly want. Right. I just want. Just give me the information when I want, when I need it and then let me be on my merry way and try to get my 200 emails down to inbox zero, which feels like an impossible task.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:28]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's right. And it is very, very much a different framing in people are becoming. It's. It's all the best practices that we've always learned of, you know, adult learning theory, but it just is really learning theory of people like to have control of their learning. And people are growing up now in a world where I use YouTube, YouTube has become the de facto place that I go to search for things when I want information now where, whether it's, I need to know how to do something on my car or around the house or some new software or figure out what to buy I just go to YouTube and find a video on it and having that reframe, I think it's probably one of the things that's disrupting formal education because it just feels so much less efficient to sit in a lecture hall for days and weeks and months. It's like, why isn't there just a video that teaches me the thing I need to know so that we can all move on with our lives. It definitely is a big, big shift.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:30]:
Are you noticing any similarities in organizations that are making those shifts more successfully versus less successfully?
Vanessa Alzate [00:25:41]:
Yeah, I am noticing where they're having more success is actually, which is interesting because some people would assume large organizations, more red tape. But in larger enterprise organizations that are dealing with franchise locations, retail locations, hourly employees, they really understand the fact that they cannot pull their folks off to go to sit and do a 90 minutes training or learning has to take place in the workplace because they need to be able to work or register at the same time and do all of those things. And so they are the ones that are moving forward with, you know, shorter videos, you know, and just being more agile when it comes to learning and putting things out there and getting the feedback because they have to be. And where I see a lot of. Look, I'm going to exclude my, my very good friends in government and military because that's a whole other ballgame, but I do love them. The smaller businesses or, you know, medium sized businesses, I'm noticing you would think they would have more flexibility, but I'm seeing the opposite. And it's not the flexibility, but they just don't have enough people to actually help to do and you know what I mean? It's like one, it's an apartment of one. I've got to do all of these different things.
Vanessa Alzate [00:27:12]:
There's just not enough time in the day, and it's really impossible to be really great at all of the things. So if you have resource, good resources, and I'm finding if you're having the need, that's where they're, you're seeing it. And I would love for them to do more case studies and presentations at conferences to show people this can be done. And it can be done well.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:31]:
Yeah, and well, and I think to the point we've been talking about since it takes resources to create a new, like, framework, a new way of doing things. And so, yeah, when you have a super lean team, you kind of just have to rely on, okay, what have.
Vanessa Alzate [00:27:49]:
We always been doing?
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:50]:
Like, I got to keep the train on the tracks. I just gotta just gotta keep stuff moving forward. Whereas, yeah, even if the whole organization doesn't immediately shift, if you have a larger company, you can afford to say, okay, you go figure this out. Go do some research, do some testing, figure out an action plan of what would be our new way of doing this, and then come back and we'll see if we can incorporate it into the whole team. So, yeah, that makes sense. And that there is kind of a level of resourcing that is required, required to try. To try to make this happen. It makes a lot of sense.
Vanessa Alzate [00:28:25]:
And it's, you know, I'll be honest, it's a whole reframe of, from an instructional design perspective, like how I write, you know, to fit more of this style. I'm walking alongside someone that's a reframe, you know, and thinking of if I'm going to create something that's more of a marketing piece for what I'm developing. That's a different language I need to be using. So it definitely takes time for people to, to do that and practice. Like, I was not good at writing TikToks before it took practice. And then you just get better at it, and you just keep doing more and more, and it gets better and better. And sometimes I can film a tick tock in 5 seconds, which is really fun.
Matt Gjertsen [00:29:04]:
Yeah, it is, definitely. It's a habit, it's a scale. It's a different thing. And it's so bringing it back to the kind of the beginning of, like, it really does change what you want to focus on as well. I was, I was just listening to a really great interview with Jimmy Donaldson, also known as MRBeast, for anybody listening that doesn't know who MrBeast is, which there's probably a lot of people who don't know who he is, but he is by far the largest youtuber on the planet. His videos regularly get over 200 million views per video. He's absolutely huge. He's been creating for over a decade.
Matt Gjertsen [00:29:43]:
And in this interview, he said he still doesn't realize, he doesn't believe he fully realizes just how important the title and thumbnail of a video are.
Vanessa Alzate [00:29:55]:
You know how much he spends on them.
Matt Gjertsen [00:29:57]:
Yeah. Over $2 million.
Vanessa Alzate [00:30:00]:
Yeah. So for one thumbnail, he'll spend $100,000 on the thumbnail.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:04]:
Yes, exactly. And for a video, he's spending two and a half million dollars.
Vanessa Alzate [00:30:07]:
Oh, yeah.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:09]:
But, um, I think it's. But it's interesting just in terms of this idea of he'll, he'll finish a video and he says, still just like, man, the title and thumbnail just really important, you know? And if you think about, you know, again, the small tweaks of how we do things in the process of how we do things. When do you, how much time do you spend thinking about the title of a course you're putting into your learning management system?
Vanessa Alzate [00:30:35]:
You know, that's so true. Especially we have to pull off. Right. Any of the requirements because that's where people are like, well, it's required. They have to take it. But there's a lot of other training that's not required, but we want people to take, and that's the training that actually matters and that's going to move the business forward. So you're so right. There needs to be a business.
Vanessa Alzate [00:30:59]:
Obviously. Now, AI could probably do this, but there needs to be a business on, like, naming things and like, naming courses and making them, like, fun and engaging, because that, for me, can be the hardest part.
Matt Gjertsen [00:31:10]:
I 100% agree. I spend a lot of time just like, I'll go to MrBeast's YouTube or different YouTube channels and I'll just like, scroll through and like, look at the titles and look at the thumbnails and like, what's going on? And they don't match because, yeah, they.
Vanessa Alzate [00:31:25]:
Always like, that's something also that we need to pay attention to. Right. Like, the COVID does not need to be exactly what the title is.
Matt Gjertsen [00:31:33]:
100%. 100%, yeah. And so it's a. Because, you know, at least the way I've done it, the way I think most people do it is you spend all this time creating the course, you're going to publish it, you're going to put in learning management system, and it's like, okay, so let me just, you just come up with a title, write a quick description. Say it. Say it's done. Yeah. But in this, you know, I think that's just such a small but important example of the reframing that has to go into it of, you know, again, thinking about how can we take lessons from these creators and apply them to the learning world? They start with, you know, and this is different because in a, on a channel like Mrbeast, where it's about entertainment, you know, so there's not necessarily any other need other than entertainment, but they start with a title.
Matt Gjertsen [00:32:22]:
What's the title that we're going to use? And then once they decide, okay, this is a great title, only then do they make a thumbnail. And if they can't get a good title and thumbnail, they don't make the video. They say it's not interesting enough. And so I think, again, it's just an example of us spending more time on. Maybe it's not the title, but certainly, like, on the outcome, it's all that revert backwards design where you're starting with the outcome that you're trying to achieve and use that as the. And if you can't identify the outcome that you're trying to achieve, if you can't identify what the hook is going to be, then maybe you shouldn't make the course.
Vanessa Alzate [00:33:04]:
That's 1000%. If you can't create the hook, you cannot identify the why. It's not actually a need, a true need. Yeah, totally.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:14]:
Okay, well, I'll get off my soapbox now.
Vanessa Alzate [00:33:18]:
Were you just listening to an interview with him about his new series he's launching? Yes.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:23]:
Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, on the Colin Samir show that. Yeah. So for listeners, it's gonna be. He's doing an Amazon show. It's gonna be the largest game, largest game show prize in history, largest number of contestants in history. It's.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:40]:
I think. I think there's a chance he might be just, like, one of the most creative entertainment minds in the world. And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see what he does in this kind of setting.
Vanessa Alzate [00:33:52]:
Yeah. And then just really quickly on this topic I want people to know, too, is that he started. There's a lot of lessons to learn from him. He started at, like, let's say, 1211, very young, and he just kept going and trying and trying. And I think that's something that we don't do enough. Right. We see people, and, like, the end results of people will see Mrbeast now, but they're not realizing all the, like, almost two decades. Right, of all the work in order to get there.
Vanessa Alzate [00:34:20]:
So we look at LinkedIn and we look at, like, you know, the folks that are, you know, the thought leaders and this and that, but we're not seeing is all of the work they took to actually get there. They just put themselves out there. They just kept recording. They just kept trying. They just kept doing. And so, okay, maybe you're not gonna hit it out of the park your first ten times, but the 11th time could be that time. So if you know in your gut that what it is that you're doing is. Is worth it and what's best for the organization, for your learners, keep trying, you know, and that's a huge lesson in and of itself.
Matt Gjertsen [00:34:52]:
100%. He is the ultimate example of the ten year overnight success, you know, because he has been. Yeah, there's a lot of good lessons there. Well, that's, I think that's a great big picture idea of hope, a hopeful idea to kind of like, you know, kind of bring this to a close. And so, like, the last question that I always like to ask that's of a similar vein is if, you know, the show is called making better, if you could snap your fingers and change one thing to make the world better, what would it be?
Vanessa Alzate [00:35:24]:
I wish people would give each other more grace. We don't give others grace. We don't step into their shoes and think about what may be going on for them. And when you can do that and put yourself in someone else's shoes, it helps you a lot more than just them.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. That's a great, excellent. Well, Vanessa, thank you so much for being here today. This is, I love talking about this topic. I think there's a lot that we can learn from creators. So thank you so much for indulging me.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:55]:
I'm sure people learned a lot. Where, where can people, what's the best way for people to reach out to you? We'll put, you know, links in the, in the show, notes for LinkedIn, everything like that. But what's the best way?
Vanessa Alzate [00:36:07]:
Yeah, LinkedIn is my number one location for sure. And I just want to thank you for having me. It's just been such a great conversation. Love the podcast and all of the insights that you bring to the industry. So I'm just was honored when you asked me to be a part of it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:24]:
Oh, amazing. I am truly honored. So thank you so much. Thanks to everybody listening. We both hope you have have a great day.
Vanessa Alzate [00:36:31]:
Bye.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:32]:
Thank you so much for listening today. If you are a fan of this podcast and have ideas for future episodes, I would really love to hear from you. Send an email to podcast@bettereverydaystudios.com. And we would love to incorporate your ideas into the show. While you're at it, make sure to like this episode and subscribe so you never miss a future episode. I hope you have a great rest of the week and we will see you next time on the making better podcast.
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