Making Better Managers for Today's Workplace with Eric Girard
Episode Overview
Welcome to the podcast dedicated to helping individuals, teams, and organizations improve in various aspects of their lives. I'm your host, Matt Gjertsen, and today we have an insightful guest joining us, Eric Girard. With over 30 years of experience in improving the performance of managers and employees, Eric specializes in helping new managers successfully transition into their roles and develop their team management skills. In this episode, Eric shares his expertise on empathy, mindset shifts, and the challenges faced by new managers in the 2020s. Stay tuned as we dive into the importance of empathy, understanding personal challenges, and rethinking our identities as managers. Let's make better together.
About Eric Girard
Eric Girard has over 30 years of experience helping improve the performance of managers and employees. He specializes in the development of new managers, focusing on their successful transition to their new role and on their team management skills using his high-energy and engaging facilitation style.
Eric is a passionate, lifelong learner. As a PADI Open Water Scuba Instructor, he is pursuing the rating of Master Scuba Diver Trainer. When not designing or delivering training, he enjoys spending time outdoors with his wife and twin 14-year-old daughters.
Full Transcript
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Eric Girard [00:00:00]:
In order to be a good manager in the 2020s, you need to be an empathetic human. And you need to be able to to tune in on how other people on your team are feeling, not just down below. You, but also on the same level as you and above you and and be able to to demonstrate some good emotional intelligence so that you can pivot and meet people where they're at. And then the second thing I would suggest is you have to shift your mindset. You have to do some deliberate thinking about, okay, I was a great engineer or I was a great financial analyst and I was paid for doing tasks. Now I'm paid for getting results through other people and motivating other people. It's an entirely different skill set and that's where I see a lot of people get hung up.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:45]:
Hello and welcome to the Making Better podcast, where we talk about how to make better, whether that is better selves, better teams, or better organizations. If you are a business owner, a learning development professional, a manager, or even an individual contributor in your organization, this show will give you actionable insights to help improve your own performance and the performance of those around you. Our guest today is Eric Gerard. Eric has over 30 years of experience helping improve the performance of managers and employees. He specializes in the development of new managers, focusing on their successful transition to their new role and on their team management skills. Using his high energy and engaging facilitation style, eric is a passionate, lifelong learner. As a Patty open water scuba instructor. He is pursuing the rating of Master Scuba Diver trainer.
Matt Gjertsen [00:01:37]:
When not designing or delivering training, he enjoys spending time outdoors with his wife and twin 14 year old daughters. Before we get into the discussion with Eric, I need to remind you everyone, if you're new to the show, please make sure you subscribe so that you never miss an episode. And if you're already subscribed, I would ask that you share this show with at least one other person. Because that, after all, is how we grow. And I can't tell you how much it means to me with that. Let's get started. Eric, how are you doing today?
Eric Girard [00:02:10]:
I am good. I'm glad it's Friday, I'll tell you that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:12]:
Yes, absolutely. Me too. I'm really excited to have this discussion. You and I have gotten to know each other over the past couple months as members of the Talent Development Think tank community. I've really enjoyed our conversations. And so the first question I have for you is, of course, what is the best place you have ever dived?
Eric Girard [00:02:35]:
The best place I've ever dived? I'd say Fiji. Fiji was off the amazing. Yeah. And a second to that would be Kauai. And the reason why those two places is because those are the two places my wife and I went on our honeymoon and I got her certified to dive. And we went together and it was amazing.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:58]:
That's awesome. Amazingly enough, I have only dove in two places in the world, and one of them is also Kauai. I really enjoyed it. That was a lot of fun.
Eric Girard [00:03:07]:
Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:03:09]:
So I always find it interesting when people have in the training space are not just kind of more traditional L and D professionals, but they're doing training out in some other fashion, right? I would imagine there's a lot of I guess I'll just ask the question, do you draw a lot from kind of your work as a scuba instructor and see that that is influencing how you instruct in the classroom?
Eric Girard [00:03:35]:
They play together. So management development and scuba do play together because a lot of what I know about adult learning theory in my day job translates to how I teach scuba. So explaining the big picture, explaining the why and the wifam what's in it for me before getting into a detailed concept and helping folks understand, okay, this way is north. This is why we're here. This is why I should care sort of a thing. Because you have to learn a lot of kind of obscure skills in scuba just in case just in case something goes wrong and in the middle of the instruction, it's easy for folks to kind of get lost in all of that. Like, why are we doing this? What is all of that? So constantly explaining, hey, this is why this matters to you. This is the benefit of learning this.
Eric Girard [00:04:22]:
And that translates between management development and scuba. And then something that I've taken from scuba is the way that Patty, the Professional Association of Diving Instructors, structures their courses. It's all really well done, excellent instructional design. They start from conceptual, Theoretical, Academic, where you take an online course developed in Articulate Rise, by the way. So you start with an online course where you get exposed to the theory and the concepts. Then you come to a classroom and discuss that and take a quick quiz and cement your knowledge. And then you head out to the pool where you first learn about the gear and how to put it together. And then you get in the shallow end and the first breath you take underwater isn't in the ocean.
Eric Girard [00:05:09]:
It's just bending over and putting your face in the water in the shallow end. And so just scaffolding little tiny steps, little scaffolds. Works really well in scuba to get people ready for that dive in the ocean. But you don't just throw people in the ocean. And so I often remember that when I'm teaching management development is, let's not throw people in the ocean. Let's start small and work up to the bigger concept.
Matt Gjertsen [00:05:35]:
Absolutely. And that's why I think it's so interesting and great when people do have some of those other kinds of instruction in their lives, because I certainly think about this from my career, teaching people how to fly planes. It's just all the concepts that we talk about in talent development and learning development, like you mentioned, Scaffolding, they just become so much more real. When you're out in a very practical setting of teaching somebody how to dive, it's not just you can literally see people going through those stages of development in really clear ways, which sometimes can be harder in more traditional corporate training, I would say.
Eric Girard [00:06:18]:
Yeah. One of the things I always do in every class I design and teach is that there's always playtime, there's always time to try a concept. If I'm going to teach coaching and I'm going to teach a grow model, not only am I going to explain it and discuss it and answer questions, but you're going to conduct a mini coaching session and get feedback on that. Same with Scuba. I'm going to explain a concept. I'm going to explain why you should care, and then you're going to go do it and come back and we're going to talk about it. Does there's a lot of crossover?
Matt Gjertsen [00:06:50]:
Yeah. Well, when you got into leadership training and kind of training in general, correct me if I'm wrong, but you kind of grew up in your career in Silicon Valley, kind of, as I would know, technology was kind of eating the world, or software was like these companies were just growing phenomenally fast. And I think there's some interesting things that happen at these companies. One, because of the way they're run and kind of then the pace at which they grow. How did your time kind of learning to do this in Silicon Valley affect how you view management and then management training?
Eric Girard [00:07:30]:
My first job in Silicon Valley started in December 1999 at a company called Veritas, and that was right at the top of the.com bubble. So it burst not long after that. It burst like the spring of 2000 or something, and everything was on fire. And my job was to run the new hire workshop to bring on new hires. We were hiring something like 60 people a month or something like that. It was a lot. And my first manager was an amazing guy who was just amazingly empathetic and really good at getting the team together and getting us all pointed in the same place, and was also my first remote manager. So he sat in San Luis Obispo, California.
Eric Girard [00:08:21]:
I sat in Mountain View, California. And we were on the phone multiple times a day just checking in. How's it going? Got any questions? What do you it just it was a great introduction to management. So Brent figures prominently in my book. I talk a lot about him as a positive example of how to do management. He's been on my podcast. He's mentioned in the book, we still stay in touch. We talk often throughout the year.
Eric Girard [00:08:49]:
So that was a great positive example. And then as I continued through my time in Silicon Valley, I ran into folks who, for example, used to be my peers at an acquiring company. And we were acquired by a company that was equal in size and equal in revenue, and somebody who had been my peer in the acquiring company was now suddenly my boss, never received any training, just got the promotion, of course. And it was horrible. It was just no fun. I didn't like it. She didn't like it. Our team didn't like it.
Eric Girard [00:09:22]:
And she actually voluntarily stepped out of that role, but not before she made a bunch of mistakes and made our lives miserable. So I definitely experienced both sides of the coin on great managers and not so great managers. And that kind of informed years later, that informed a lot of the premise of the book.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:42]:
Yeah, I can imagine. I think that tie in of sometimes those bad examples are really what are more informative sometimes than the good examples, for sure. Anything about kind of that fast paced environment. I mean, I know you focus a lot on new managers and making that transition, I'm guessing that came out of part of that fact and that there's just a lot of new managers, especially growing companies.
Eric Girard [00:10:10]:
Yeah, there's always folks who are being promoted. There's always that high potential, high performing individual contributor who gets tapped by senior management or senior leaders like, okay, you are an awesome engineer. We're going to have you lead the engineers. And I think what's missing is that what got you here won't get you there. To quote Marshall Goldsmith, so just because you're an amazing doer doesn't mean you're going to be an amazing leader. And if you're not prepared, you could really fail. And I saw that happen a lot, and it happened to me, even though I should have known better. I got promoted to lead my team in another company, and I came in like a bull in a china shop and just wreaked havoc, and none of us were happy.
Eric Girard [00:10:55]:
So I walked away from that thinking, okay, never again. That's never going to happen to me or anybody else ever again. I'm really going to be thoughtful and planful about how I develop myself, how I develop other managers, and ultimately it became this business.
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:10]:
Yeah. And you mentioned that you just came out with a book called Lead Like a Pro. I've had the opportunity to get kind of a preread of it. I think it's a really amazing book. I really have to compliment you on how well researched I found it and how everything that you were saying is really grounded. You're really building on top of a lot of other work that's been done and then integrating it together really seamlessly to be these practical tips for people. What are some of the hardest things you mentioned this transition? It's all about realizing what got you here won't get you there. What tend to be some of the biggest hang ups that people have when they're making that transition into being a first time manager that you've seen.
Eric Girard [00:11:54]:
Well, the first chapter of the book is all about bringing the empathy. I think that in order to be a good manager in the 2020s, you need to be an empathetic human, and you need to be able to tune in on how other people on your team are feeling. Not just down below you, but also on the same level as you and above you and be able to demonstrate some good emotional intelligence so that you can pivot and meet people where they're at. Because you never know what people are going know. Lord knows I read the New York Times every day, and I kind of wish I didn't because there's so much stuff going on in the world and then people have stuff going on in their personal lives and, oh, by the way, COVID's coming back. Being an empathetic person, I think is a prerequisite these days for being a great manager. And then the second thing I would suggest is you have to shift your mindset. You have to do some deliberate thinking about, okay, I was a great engineer, or I was a great financial analyst, and I was paid for doing tasks
Eric Girard [00:12:58]:
Now I'm paid for getting results through other people and motivating other people. It's an entirely different skill set. And that's where I see a lot of people get hung up, is they don't make that transition or they don't make it quickly. And so in the meantime, they micromanage. They don't set goals, they don't do the basic blocking and tackling that you need to do as a manager. And then they also hoard the task. They do the things that they were good at. They just hang on to it.
Eric Girard [00:13:23]:
They don't delegate that out, which causes huge bottlenecks and slows everybody down and causes problems on the team because people are like, excuse me, don't you trust me? I can do that. Let me run. So those are some of the first two things that I would encourage a new manager to consider, is ramp up the empathy and be deliberate about that transition.
Matt Gjertsen [00:13:44]:
Yeah. Especially because of the way that we tend to promote people, like you said, because they were an excellent individual contributor, they were a great engineer. It's almost by definition, then, that you are going to be better at individual tasks than the people who are on your team, at least initially. Almost by definition, that's what's naturally going to happen. And so I think that is why so many people fall into that trap of, but I could do this task, I could do it faster, or I could do it better. And then it's such a good point that you're making, though, is realizing that's not the job anymore. It really is something different now.
Eric Girard [00:14:30]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I've done this myself. I do it with my kids all the time. For example, mowing the lawn. Will you please mow the lawn? Okay, here's how I want you to mow the lawn. No, I'll do it myself. I'll do it my way. No, but my way is better.
Eric Girard [00:14:44]:
No. But, dad, I can do this. And so I've gotten into knock down, drag out fights with my daughter over how the lawn is going to be mowed. That's not good delegation. That's not me drinking my own champagne, as they say. So if you're going to delegate to somebody, let them bring their own individual experience and mindset to it and let them surprise you. And yeah, it may take a while, and they may have to do the task over twice. It may happen, it may go slower than you would like, but think of it as an investment.
Eric Girard [00:15:16]:
If I allow or enable this employee to take on this task of the new TPS cover sheet or whatever, if I let you own that and you go through it, make a mistake, reflect on those mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and then do it again. Now I've got somebody, now I have power, because now I've duplicated myself exactly. And that person make it good enough that they can then train the people behind them and so on and so on. And now you're not the bottleneck anymore. Really valuable.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:50]:
Yeah. And I think it's also another piece of that is realizing that just because it's not your way doesn't mean it's the wrong way. Like kind of opening your aperture of what's acceptable, work a little bit so that people can explore their own way and then maybe what they do will end up being a better way. Maybe the results will end up being better than what you had initially thought if you allow them that freedom. Do you think companies, every company that I've ever worked at, I was never just a manager. I was always a manager with other individual contributor duties. How do you think is that part of the problem? Or is that just something that people need to figure out how to manage?
Eric Girard [00:16:32]:
That's just the way it is. And I've never met a manager who was just a professional manager. Maybe I met one who was just a professional manager, but most managers I've encountered have some level of individual contributor tasks they're responsible for. And so the challenge for those folks is to delegate as much as you can so that you can focus on those things only you can do. So, for example, with my company, which are our training solutions, when I started the company, I'm like, well, I'll be a one man band. I will design, develop, and deliver the programs. I will take care of the branded slide decks. I will run the website, I will do the bookkeeping, I will do the marketing.
Eric Girard [00:17:11]:
And I got overwhelmed, for one thing. So I was exhausted all the time. And secondly, I was really making a mess of things. It turns out I'm not really that good of a web designer, and I'm a horrible bookkeeper, and it cost me $1,000 to fix my mistakes at tax time. So you can make your life a lot easier if you just remember the mantra of, what are the things that only I can do? And be really ruthless about that. Really? Are you really the only person who can do this? Or could somebody else take this on? And then your portfolio becomes more manageable and you empower the rest of your team. So now I've got a team of people around me who love what they do. Diana loves the social media aspect of it.
Eric Girard [00:17:53]:
Bill's a fantastic publicist. Sandra is an amazing graphic designer. I don't even understand how my website works anymore. I have no clue how WordPress works anymore, and I'm happy. I like it that way. Sandra's got it, and I know she's got it. And if I say, hey, can you do this? She says, yes, and it's done. And I don't care about the details.
Eric Girard [00:18:15]:
I care about the outcome. And it works a lot better that way.
Matt Gjertsen [00:18:20]:
I mean, that really is a big part of it, I think is one of the reasons why delegation is so challenging. We kind of already covered one of them is like, you're used to being the one that does it. You think you can do it better, and at least initially that may be true, but there's also that concern of loss of control, and I think there is that feel of, I'm responsible for this outcome, but I don't understand all the outcomes. And I know I've had discussions with people before where the way to kind of do that unlock is to just imagine maybe not your first promotion to manager, but the third or fourth or fifth. Imagine yourself getting promoted to CEO, and you are now responsible for everything that happens at the company, but you have absolutely no clue about what's going on. At the bottom level, really, there's just no way possible that you could do all that stuff. I don't know. You were able to do it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:20]:
You were able to kind of say, like, okay, I'm going to focus on my things and shift everything else away. If there's a manager out there listening and they're realizing this is their challenge, what can we do to help them?
Eric Girard [00:19:35]:
The first thing I would say is that it's normal to hang on. When you move from an individual contributor role to a manager role, there's some grieving that's a change process, and change entails some grieving. And so hanging on to what we knew is normal. So recognizing that that's okay for a little while, that's okay, and you're going to have to get through it, but don't beat yourself up because you're naturally wanting to gravitate back to what you know or what you knew. I think you have to take a leap off. So, for example, in my case, I didn't want to hand over the website to Sandra, but I got to a point where I was making so many mistakes with it, and it was just driving me nuts. I'm like, I need some relief. And Sandra said, yeah, I can do that
Eric Girard [00:20:28]:
Sure. And so rather than saying, okay, I want you to update the website, and this is how I want you to do it, I just said, this is what good looks like. This is what I want the outcome. I don't care how the sausage is made. Just come to me in three days with what I ask you for. And she knocked it out of the park consistently nice, and there's no mind reading involved. It helps that she's very seasoned, but there's no mind reading involved. It's mostly me getting out of the way and getting out of her business.
Eric Girard [00:20:56]:
And so if you can have a big part of it is doing a little change management on yourself and recognizing that you're going to go through denial, resistance, exploration and commitment and denial and resistance are unpleasant, but a normal part of the process. And just kind of keep coaching yourself toward, okay, well, what could this look like? And then finally, okay, I'm on board, and Sandra's running the website, and I don't even care how she does it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:23]:
One question that I loved in there that you just mentioned is, what could this look like? I feel like that's a big one, is just especially if you're in an organization where there are a lot of other new managers who haven't received training, and maybe you've never had the privilege, as you did, of having a really great example of what good leadership looks like. I think there's probably a lot of people who just their model of being a manager is being stressed out, being really controlled, being pulled in too many directions, not knowing what to do. And there is I always go back to the tim Ferriss has a question that he always says he started asking himself of just, what if this were easy? What if being a manager were easy? What would it possibly look like? And as pie in the sky as that might sound, it feels like it could be a good exercise for some people to just like, how else could this work?
Eric Girard [00:22:17]:
Yeah, exactly. Another question that I love to ask when somebody comes to me asking for something is, what would you do if I wasn't here? So an employee comes and asks a question, and it's within their purview to know this, you know, that they're smart and experienced, and you just say, well, what would you do if I wasn't here? And let them think about it and answer you. And chances are they'll come up with a good answer. And so if you can build that confidence and capability in your team that they actually know what they're doing and that you're there and you have their back, then you're going to develop a high performing team that does not rely on you for everything.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:57]:
100%. That really reminds me of I remember after I changed companies a while back, I ran into someone who had left the same company that I had left and joined the same company that I had joined. And I ran into them again and they were talking about how after they had left, their team had kind of immediately fallen apart. And they were kind of talking about it with a point of pride, of like they were the key, they were the linchpin, they were the one holding it. You know, again, to bring up a Tim Ferriss thing, he would say, if you can't leave your team for two weeks and have nothing, skip a beat, then you are doing a disservice to your team.
Eric Girard [00:23:41]:
Absolutely.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:42]:
That's really the goal.
Eric Girard [00:23:43]:
You've missed something big if your team falls apart if you're not there. Yes, you want to build self reliance and capability and have that mindset of I do know what I'm doing. I don't have to run to Matt for everything.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:58]:
Yeah.
Eric Girard [00:24:00]:
There's a great article in the Harvard Business Review called Who's Got the Monkey? And it was written in 74 and then republished in The Think. And it talks about six different levels of decision making everywhere from you wait to be told what to do all the way up to you, just do whatever it is and don't even bother telling your boss. And the thesis that I pull from that is let's at least get to level two where if I've got a question or a problem, I come to Matt, my boss, not with a question, but with two or three options of how we might fix this. And so the discussion is not what do I do? The discussion is, I've done some thinking and I have two or three options for you. Which one do you like?
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:44]:
Yeah, I think to the point that you keep making about realizing that this is a shift, this is another one of those shifts of going from individual contributor to manager. In many ways, as an individual contributor, a big part of what you are trying to do is make yourself like the critical person. Like you're trying to get enough skills, get to this point where you are the one that has the technical answer that is needed. And part of that shift when you become a manager is just that's not the game anymore. It really is a different thing. Outside of what individuals can do and what they can focus on, are there any common things that you see from the organizational perspective of if I'm in HR and I'm thinking about policies or I'm a director or the head of a company, are there things an organization can do other than providing training and resources that can help this transition be easier?
Eric Girard [00:25:43]:
I think providing resources to high potentials. So rather than sort of surprising somebody with TADA, you're a manager today, letting people know that they're being observed, groomed, watched, and providing some resources ahead of time. So that would be my ideal audience for the book and for the classes I teach is a room full of high potentials who are going to be promoted within the next three months. So they get a realistic job preview of what being a manager actually entails, and they have the chance to say, okay, now I'm ready. Or they may say, I'm tapping out, this is not for me. I want to follow the individual contributor path. And many organizations, especially larger ones, have senior technical level ladders that people can follow. So you can become a Vice president equivalent and still remain an individual contributor with all the rights and privileges thereof without having to manage a huge team.
Eric Girard [00:26:43]:
So people should know about that and not feel like their only path to advancement is to manage people because it's not for everybody. But I think just an organization that says, hey, you know what, you're being groomed and here are some resources and let's get you ready to make that transition so that you're not on a back foot already. That would be the thing I would really like to see more of because I tend to come in after somebody's been enrolled for a while. I'll come into an organization where I've got a mix of brand new managers who have been enrolled for a month and then I've got some folks who've been in for ten years. And so with that vast range of experience, you have to juggle a little bit and say, okay, to these people, I'm going to say this. To these people, I'm going to say that. And hopefully I'm hitting everybody's pain points. But if I could get a cohort of brand new, just about to be promoted, folks, that'd be amazing.
Eric Girard [00:27:38]:
Yeah.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:39]:
And also maybe not even about to be promoted, but people who could be promoted, that idea of there should be people, there will be people who say, this isn't for me. Once they learn about it, they're going to say like, talk about a progressive company. If I see a company that has that like one having those dual tracks so people know that they can get promoted in different ways, but then even after that, giving people a preview so that they can kind of try before they buy I imagine would be really helpful for an organization.
Eric Girard [00:28:11]:
Yeah, absolutely. And my book would be one of those resources I would offer. There are tons of others. Do a little reading, spend a little time on YouTube before you get promoted to decide if this is even for you. And if it is, then you're ready to go. And then you can step into role confidently without trying to figure. It out on day one.
Matt Gjertsen [00:28:31]:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, so the book just came out Lead Like a Pro. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that's just like a key nugget from the book that you want to make sure people walk away with?
Eric Girard [00:28:45]:
I think on the last page, in big bold letters, it says, you are not alone. As a new manager, it can feel overwhelming. There's a lot to do. There's a lot to think about. I would encourage folks to remember that they're surrounded by their network and they need to broaden that network and talk to people who are more seasoned than them, more experienced than them. Make friends with your HRBP. Make friends with senior leaders in other organizations aside from your own, and build that network of leaders that you can go to. So you've got a best friend or two or three at work you can go to and say, hey, I'm having this challenge.
Eric Girard [00:29:27]:
I have personally really benefited from my relationships with HRBPs and talking with other senior leaders. I mean, just networking and getting to know people and letting them get to know you so that when you need a hand, you've got that ready to go is really helpful.
Matt Gjertsen [00:29:43]:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that, eric, thank you for your time. The book is lead like a pro. Everybody make sure you go pick it up. It's on Amazon. Like I said, I just really highly recommend this book. I know it was difficult. I know you've shared that the creation of this book was a challenge.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:03]:
It was well worth the effort. It's really good stuff. So thank you so much for being here, Eric.
Eric Girard [00:30:08]:
Thanks, Matt. I appreciate it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:09]:
Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you liked the discussion, make sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. As a reminder, if your team is struggling keeping up with the training development demands of your organization, we want to help. Better Everyday Studios is full service instructional design team that can help you with everything from ideation to actual content creation and delivery. Please reach out to us using the link in the episode notes below. Have a great day.
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