Making Sense of the Mixed Reality World w/Kristin Torrence
Episode Overview
On this week’s episode of Making Better, we talk with Kristin Torrence, an Immersive Learning Engineer who focuses on applying learning sciences, instructional design, and data science practices to create effective learning experiences. In this episode we discuss the current state of XR technology, the situations it is best suited to, and how learning teams should think about using Virtual Reality or Mixed Reality solutions. We also spend a moment discussing her involvement with the development of Learning Engineering as a process for creating more effective learning experiences.
About Kristin Torrence
Kristin Torrence is an Immersive Learning Engineer who focuses on applying learning sciences, instructional design, and data science practices to design, instrument, and validate XR learning solutions. She co-founded XR in LXD, a meetup, and community of practice for IDs/LXDs interested in designing XR, and she is an active member of the Immersive Learning Research Network (iLRN), XR Women and the IEEE Industry Consortium on Learning Engineering (ICICLE).
Full Transcript
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Kristin Torrence [00:00:00]:
So how do I have a really difficult conversation with a direct report who maybe is not performing well? Those types of conversations or situations are really difficult to come by in real life, and usually when we're, when we do experience it, it's already high stakes enough that we don't want to mess up. And so providing these types of immersive experiences that can replic, replicate the contextual cues and really situation that we can then act upon and in practice I think is really ideal.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:36]:
Hello and welcome to the Making Better podcast, where we talk about making ourselves, our teams, and our organizations better. So whether you are a business owner, a manager, or a learning development professional, this show will give you actionable insights of how to improve your performance and the performance of those around you. Today we are talking to Kristen Torrance, an immersive learning engineer who focuses on applying learning sciences, instructional design and data science practices to design, instrument and validate XR learning solutions. She co founded XR in LXD, a meetup and community of practice for IDs and learning experience designers interested in designing XR, and she's an active member of the Immersive Learning Research Network XR Women and the IEEE Industry Consortium on Learning Engineering. Kristen and I met recently at ATD core Four event, and I knew I had to have her on because she's been in this world of virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality for quite a while. And now that it's really, in my mind coming to center stage, I knew we would have a lot to talk about and it would bring a lot of value to any listeners who don't already know a lot about this stuff who are kind of venturing into the mixed reality space, trying to kind of figure out what they should do, how to think about it for learning in their organization. Before we get into the conversation, I do want to remind you that if this is your first time listening, make sure to hit subscribe so that you never miss a future episode. And if you are already subscribed, I would just ask that you take a few moments to share this show with at least one other person, because that is how we grow.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:27]:
It means so much to me. Now let's get into the conversation. Kristen, welcome to the Making Better podcast. How are you doing this morning?
Kristin Torrence [00:02:37]:
Thanks so much for having me. I'm doing great.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:40]:
Excellent. I am really excited for this conversation. I think this is the second episode we've had that largely revolves around the idea of VR, AR, mixed reality, all that kind of stuff. I am doubly excited for this conversation because I just got my quest three headset. This is the first time I've gotten a headset and I'm just having so much fun with it. So you've been in this world for a while now. How did you get into the world of virtual reality and what kind of pulled you into it?
Kristin Torrence [00:03:18]:
Yeah, so I have always been interested in game based learning. That is something that I worked in before working for Tailspin, the virtual reality company that I work for right now. We were creating educational games for K Twelve, and I got to attend a bunch of these different educational game conferences, which really blew my mind to see what other technology is out there. And I had the opportunity to demo a virtual reality science game where we got to really just pound different elements of the periodic table together or break apart different objects and see what those elements were. And for me, it sort of opened my mind to see what's possible in the realm of virtual reality and really providing learners a super experiential and visceral experience. And from that day on, I was like, I want to work in VR. I had the opportunity to interview for a company, the company that I'm at now as a learning experience designer, and got to work on my first VR game or VR serious game or learning.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:35]:
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I think that experiential element of it is so neat. There's a particular one for quest Three that I'm really excited about, for thinking about with my daughter, where they have a Lego game where you're just like building LEgos but it's in your house, right? Because you're in your house and it's just like you can build this big animated Lego environment. It's not out yet, but I'm really excited for it.
Kristin Torrence [00:05:05]:
That sounds fantastic. And I have to say that I'm quite jealous because I do not have a quest three yet. Yeah, I'm still on the quest too, so I cannot wait to get my hands on the quest three.
Matt Gjertsen [00:05:15]:
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. But now that being said, I'm saying it's amazing. And I think it is amazing. But I've never used one of these before. Really? I had one brief experience with a quest two that I wasn't super impressed with, but I think that was more the developers rather than the hardware itself. But for you, who's been kind of in this world for a while, could you give the listeners a sense of what is the current state of the technology? What do you see as things that and feel free to focus your answer on if you want to focus on VR or mixed reality or whatever it is, what's kind of the current state of the technology, what do you see it as good at? And maybe what are still limitations?
Kristin Torrence [00:06:05]:
Yeah, well, I will say that in terms of XR, it's becoming more widely adopted in use cases like entertainment or gaming or even marketing. You can see both AR and VR being widely adopted. But I think what's probably the most exciting for me is that it's becoming more prevalent in the learning and development space. So either for creating CGI type training where different environments or machinery or objects and tools are being recreated to help with varied practice and provide these experiences for learners, that sort of offering. But then there's also the offering where you can situate learners or other folks. Maybe you have a distributed team and you can all meet in an online meeting room or over a campfire. So it is also providing the opportunity for connection and bringing people together and make them feel like they're physically together, even though they may be distributed, which is great in terms of what it does well. So that brings us to presence and immersion.
Kristin Torrence [00:07:22]:
And I would say most of my responses lean a little bit more on the virtual reality side, just because that's the area that I sort of focus on. But what it does is really provide these visceral experiences. Really, you can situate learners in these really intense or highly emotional or unique situations where they need to practice and really help build and apply their skills. And I think that's what virtual reality and XR does really well, where it's not quite there yet, I would say is probably the affordability of XR headsets. It's not ubiquitous. Right. There's still that challenge of getting this hardware into the hands of everyone. So that is definitely a challenge, although there is, and this also speaks to accessibility.
Kristin Torrence [00:08:30]:
Right. I think there's still a lot of back up. I think there's still a lot of room for improvement on the accessibility front. But it's common to provide options like a desktop version option or a browser based option for folks who don't have access to the hardware or who are unable to have the headset.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:04]:
Yeah, I know a friend of mine was mentioning he was working with a company that kind of just for fun probably. I think this was several months ago when we were at like peak metaverse froth, and everybody was really excited about it. And so it was a big manufacturing company that was holding a meeting with all their suppliers, and so they chose to have it in the metaverse, he didn't have a headset. And so, like you said, he just logged in through his computer and kind of got to experience that way. I do think that's what I'm most. One of the things that is really exciting is the potential for some of the underlying. There's differences in what the technology is. There's like the experience, and then there's how you experience it, which can be two different things, and they don't have to be tied together, which is, I think that's one of the things that in learning is so often a limitation, is we make this great learning experience in this software, and in order to experience it, I think that's one of the reasons why Scorm is still a thing, why, as much as everybody complains about it, it's still so ubiquitous, because it's a universal language versus so many apps that people make to probably create better learning experiences.
Matt Gjertsen [00:10:30]:
Don't publish out in the same way, or you have to go to their app, create their login, or whatever. Whereas potentially these experiences can be more of a, it's code that you're accessing through a QR code, through your phone, through a laptop, through a headset, and you can kind of experience in a lot of different ways. So there is an accessibility piece, and then also to the point that you mentioned about price point, that's why I was so excited about the quest three. I mean, the vision Apple Pro is great, and I'm sure it's going to be amazing, but it's $3,500. Not to say that $500 is cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than $3,500. And so that price point is probably the thing that excited me the most about the quest three, but we'll see where it goes.
Kristin Torrence [00:11:24]:
Yeah, well, and I think the advances of Generative AI, what I'm really hoping is that sort of applying that technology and other types of machine learning will not only help folks get in the door of creating virtual reality experiences, but make the generation of virtual reality experiences cheaper and probably provide more access to folks who don't have access to it right now.
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:53]:
Because that was the other part of the price that I wanted to ask you about, especially now, if we have headsets that are at like a $500 price point from the point of view of financial accessibility, is where are we at in that creation piece? Because it seems like that's also been a limitation, is that it takes a sizable investment in just the creation of it. How is that coming down? How are you seeing that come down, because correct me if I'm a tailspin, a big part of what you have is a tool to create with. Is that right?
Kristin Torrence [00:12:29]:
Yeah, it definitely. So I would say the original way of Creating virtual reality is usually from the ground up. Everything is kind of bespoke. But I think where we've gone in the last couple of years, and Tailspin being one of the companies that offers this is no code virtual reality experiences. And I think that provides options for most people who do not have access to developers or hiring multiple contractors to develop these unity generated experiences. It provides access to those who are creating and makes it easier to bridge that sort of gap while also providing. So one of the things we also provide is an off the shelf content library. So we have experiences already created so folks who do not have a team to even develop can still implement virtual reality experiences at their company by getting subscriptions from our content library.
Matt Gjertsen [00:13:36]:
Yeah, I think that's an awesome ability there, especially if it's built in with kind of the same technology. So you can kind of purchase it, but then you can tweak it. It's templatized.
Kristin Torrence [00:13:47]:
Exactly.
Matt Gjertsen [00:13:47]:
It'll really open things up for folks. It's going to be just a whole new realm for us to explore in terms of the creation process, which is so exciting. You kind of mentioned this. We kind of touched on this when we were talking about what are the pros and cons and strengths and weaknesses. But just straight from a learning professional's perspective, if I'm thinking about this stuff, what are the times that you think, given where we're at right now, that I, as a learning professional, I'm a learning manager, I should be thinking like, this is a situation where I think XR is a good solution.
Kristin Torrence [00:14:26]:
Well, I would say it definitely depends on the use case and what that use case is. Situations of either a varied practice or repeated practice. Right. So let's say you're operating heavy machinery, and perhaps that machinery cost a lot of money, and working on that adds up for the business. Right. The purchase of the machine, the upkeep of the machine, maybe even like the site in which this machine is held. So things that are high cost, things that are rare, or machinery that is hard to come by, or anything really high stakes. Right.
Kristin Torrence [00:15:10]:
And that could be either safety precautions on a warehouse floor, that sort of thing is very high stakes, or even high stakes conversations. Right. So how do I have a really difficult conversation with a direct report who maybe is not performing well? Those types of conversations or situations are really difficult to come by in real life. And usually when we do experience it, it's already high stakes enough that we don't want to mess up. And so providing these types of immersive experiences that can replicate the contextual cues and really situation that we can then act upon and in practice, I think is really ideal. So really anything super visceral, anything that requires repeated practice and also might be high cost. So I would definitely lean in that realm of skill, procedural type of development, rather than anything sort of knowledge based. Right.
Kristin Torrence [00:16:21]:
Because if we think about designing for modalities as instructional designers, it's the thing that we think about all the time. We don't want to lean with the technology, we want to lean in and with the learning objectives. And if those are more on the knowledge type side, then it's probably ideal to go a different route with the modality.
Matt Gjertsen [00:16:45]:
So you're saying it's not a best practice to take the current hour long lecture that I deliver and just put it in the metaverse? That's not what we want.
Kristin Torrence [00:16:54]:
No, definitely not. However, I will say that there are maybe I can backtrack and say different types of knowledge could be very useful. Let's take an AR application, for instance, and there is a machine that I need to operate, but I just kind of want a refresher on what these buttons mean. And I can scan a QR code and see an overlay. That is information, of course. Right. And that is just in time. Information that can be delivered to us readily that is AR based.
Kristin Torrence [00:17:29]:
So there are some different types of use cases between AR and VR that we might want to consider as well.
Matt Gjertsen [00:17:37]:
Yeah, that all makes a ton of sense. I think back to the time when I was a pilot in the military, and they very much followed kind of what you were just saying of high cost, low frequency, high, what was the word you used? High stakes. And so it was things that were either situations that happened very rarely, even things like doing a complicated instrument approach in the weather. So these times where you don't see the runway until you're 200ft above the ground, that doesn't actually happen that often as a pilot, but you need to practice it a lot. And so doing that in a simulator is perfect because you can just create the situation or things that are too dangerous, like engine fires and that kind of stuff. All perfect ways to use this kind of technology. Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense. So with all that, what are you the most excited about for everything that it can do now? Everything that you've seen.
Matt Gjertsen [00:18:45]:
What are the biggest breakthroughs that you think are likely to happen soon that are really going to open this up to a wider audience?
Kristin Torrence [00:18:54]:
I think probably two things. One, maybe the two things are very different. The thing I'm excited about, and then the things open it up to a wider audience. But what I'm most excited about are the different types of data collection within these experiences. In terms of things like eye tracking or skin conductivity.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:19]:
Yes.
Kristin Torrence [00:19:21]:
There's so much we can think about and learn about the types of experiences that we're creating, both about the experiences and how learners are perceiving it, like heart rate, other types of biometrics that we can collect to either to optimize our learning solutions. And I think that is, for me, like the most exciting aspect of the emerging tech.
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:44]:
Yes, if I could pause on that to double click on it, because I think you are right. And so for people who haven't dove into this technology a lot, because the whole goal of this technology, both with what Apple is doing and with what Meta is doing, is to try to make the system as seamless as possible. So, for example, now with the quest three, with quest two, you had little things that you were holding in your hands, and that's how you interacted with the world with these two little controllers. Those controllers still exist with the quest three, but there is the option to do stuff without them where it's watching where your hands are going and you can kind of pinch. And in order to enable all that, it's having all these cameras that are tracking your body movement and like you said, tracking your eyes to try to see where your attention is going so that it knows kind of what you're trying to select. And it reminded me, again, to bring back the pilot days, years ago, the Israeli Air Force, in their training aircraft actually put cameras that were facing the student pilot to see where they're looking. So it's like, hey, an emergency just happened, a problem just happened. If the instrument that you need to be looking at is on the left and your eyes are first looking to the right, then you don't know what to do.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:01]:
You're hunting for the answer. Maybe you find the answer eventually, but it's a signal that there is still some element missing for you. And, yeah, by the sheer fact that in order to make this technology possible, they're having to build in all these sensors, having to see all this stuff, that's just a whole new level of data. I can see why you're really excited about that, because that's incredible.
Kristin Torrence [00:21:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. And even just right in your example, where you're looking in your eyes can definitely be indicators of your competency or your proficiency with any sort of task. Also, just thinking about things like different biometrics, like heart rate. Is your heart in a high stake situation? How stressed might you be? But how does that differ from your response under that type of stress? And I think that is also very interesting, exciting space to.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:04]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so that's what you're excited about. It sounds like you had another thing that you think is going to be able to open this up for folks.
Kristin Torrence [00:22:13]:
And we sort of touched on it befoRe, but the Apple Vision Pro, I think, will be the turning point. And maybe this is what I'm hoping. But I'm hoping for the iPhone revelation or revolution to happen for headsets. And I think with Apple sort of leading that charge, I think other companies and other headset makers will then try to compete. And I think that competition will eventually lead to not just innovation, but also more affordability within the space.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:49]:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for you to try out the quest three because at least the first thing I did is there was this free game that came with the quest Three, where these little fur balls break into your house and you have to capture them with a little gun. And so you put the headset on and you have to look around the room because it scans and maps the room to figure out where the walls and the ceiling are and stuff. And then this spaceship breaks through your ceiling and lands on your floor. And then these little furballs start knocking on the door and breaking through the walls, and it's where the wall is. Right. These holes in the wall are on your wall, and you can look through the holes into this alien landscape. It feels so real that when the experience is over and you take the headset off, you're almost kind of, for a second, your brain's going, but where are the was.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:50]:
It was so real, and, yeah, so for the Apple, because I have to believe that Apple is going to do it even better. It's going to be even more immersive. Yeah, I can see why you're excited about that. I think you're right. And, yeah, I think we're waiting for that iPhone moment. And surprisingly to me, it hasn't happened with Meta. Like, meta, all this stuff has come out. Now that meta's, their revenue is down for their metaverse stuff in the last quarter and things like that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:21]:
I mean, it's early days, but we'll see.
Kristin Torrence [00:24:24]:
Yeah, we'll see, I am definitely looking forward to getting my hands on both the quest three and hopefully one day, I don't know when, but hopefully one day, maybe in the Apple Store.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:39]:
Yeah, exactly. Try it ouT. Exactly. Yeah. And for anybody listening to, I also think it's interesting. I'll highlight just a neat Marcus Brownlee video that came out recently where he was talking about the spectrum from AR goggles to AR glasses and how they're kind of both on two ends of a spectrum that are racing towards one another, whereas on the goggle front or on the headset front, they're racing to shrink the technology down to get into a better form factor. And then on the glasses side, they have the form factor that I think everybody wants, but they need to figure out how to package the technology that they need for the experience that we want. It was an interesting take on that because it is a spectrum, and I think, and those two sides are kind of racing towards one another.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:33]:
If we could shift gears now, because there's another kind of topic that I wanted to touch on with you because I know you're heavily involved in this, at least to me, kind of new world of learning engineering. It was a phrase that I first heard very recently. Maybe some of the listeners have never even heard of it before. What is learning engineering, and how are you involved in this idea of kind of creating what learning engineering is?
Kristin Torrence [00:26:01]:
Sure. So learning engineering, I will say it has been around for quite some time, but the definition has been evolving and developing. And I want to say that in either 2019 or 2020, the Industry Consortium on Learning Engineering had developed an actual definition for what it was. And it's defined as learning engineering is both a process and a practice that applies the learning sciences, human centered engineering design methodologies, and data informed decision making to support learners. And what that means in terms of how we might want to differentiate that from things like instructional design or user experience design. Human centered design is that it is multidisciplinary, so it does include aspects. It draws on different aspects from different disciplines that enable that type of process and practice work. Right.
Kristin Torrence [00:27:08]:
So instructional design, learning engineering is still very much heavily focused on creating positive learning experiences, effective learning experiences for learners, not just in terms of individualized experiences, but holistic. Right. Creating different environments for learners to thrive, pulling from things like human centered design and engineering. The reason why it's called learning engineering is because the way in which the term engineering is applying natural sciences to the solving of problems, learning engineers apply learning sciences to the solving of learning problems and challenges. And so that's where that terminology comes in. In terms of human centered design, it does take draw on aspects of creating personas, doing participatory design, and other types of human centered design, methods to design specifically for learners. And then there's that data and instrumentation piece that is all informative of that learning design and efficacy. Really?
Matt Gjertsen [00:28:31]:
Yeah. I love that you think about it so much like a practice, because similar to, say, just instructional design, there's a recent post from Sarah Kinestra who is talking about how you can have instructional design as a title. You can be an instructional designer, instructional design can be a practice. It can be a lot of different things. And I will admit, when I first heard learning engineer, I was like, okay, is this just another title? Is this the next thing that we're going to do? We're no longer. We used to be like ISDs, and then we're IDs, now we're learning engineers, and we're just keep trying to prop it up. But it was a conversation with you that really swayed me the other way, because not to think of it as, okay, now we need to go hire some learning engineers because I think kind of the point you're making that I'm hearing is like, there almost can't be. It's not like there's not going to be the person that knows all this stuff.
Matt Gjertsen [00:29:28]:
The idea is that it is a process to pull in all these multidisciplinary people and fields and backgrounds in order to create the optimum experience. And really what it comes down to, like you were saying, is, what's the starting point? It's the learning sciences. It's the cognitive sciences. That is what we're starting to solve these problems. And I know last time we chatted, I mentioned a book that I cannot remember. I think there's a book that's really central to this, that helps people define learning engineering.
Kristin Torrence [00:30:00]:
Oh, yes. It's called the Learning Engineering Toolkit.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:03]:
Perfect. Okay.
Kristin Torrence [00:30:04]:
Yes. It was released, I want to say, in 2021, was published by editors or Jim Goddell and Janet Kalodener. It's available, I think it's published by Rootledge. And it's a fantastic toolkit. It's a book, and it could be read from start to finish, or you could just take a look at the different chapters and take what you need that's separated into both, like, theory and tools. And so I reference it multiple times every week. It's my go to.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:48]:
Excellent, excellent. So that's a great one to pick it up. But also on top of that, let's say you're talking to a small learning team. Maybe there are one or two people or something like that. What are some ways they can get started with learning engineering or think about how to change maybe what would be the traditional way of delivering learning in an organization and start applying some of these principles. It's probably super specific to this. It's probably very situational, but based on the people that you know, situations that you've seen, what do you think are some common things that people can do to start applying principles from learning and engineering to improve talent development processes in an organization?
Kristin Torrence [00:31:27]:
Yeah, so I would say if you don't already have a background in learning sciences, I would say definitely do a refresher on that because that will really help you provide the foundation for why you're even making certain design decisions in the first place. And for me, I think what was revolutionary was identifying. I'm making this design decision. And these are the assumptions that underlie that decision. And those assumptions are rooted in the learning sciences because they are the ways in which we know what works for people and how they learn. Right. That is still a hypothesis, right. That's a design assumption that we're making with this design decision and that needs to be validated when this learning experience is then published with our target learners to make sure it's creating the most optimal outcomes that we are intending them to be.
Kristin Torrence [00:32:32]:
So thinking about everything is almost like, this is a hypothesis. With this design decision, how am I going to then validate that? This was a sound design decision after the fact, right? What metrics will I now build or plan to collect to then inform whether or not that design decision was sound? And so thinking about it, almost like it might be just a mindseft shift, but I think about everything as an experiment, right? We don't actually know, and everything could be evidence informed, but we don't know yet until we have the data to then validate whether our solutions are valid and promoting positive learning outcomes. Knowing about the learning sciences, I think, helps set the foundation for making sound design decisions.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:30]:
Yeah, I would agree with that. Especially in a field like ours where many people, we come from so many different backgrounds, people fall into learning for all kinds of reasons. Whether you're coming from the people space, you were a subject matter expert, and it can be easy to kind of skip over that foundational knowledge. I think that's a good. That's a really good catch. Good call out.
Kristin Torrence [00:33:55]:
Awesome. And I would, if I could add just one more. Another, please. And I think this is something that we've seen increasing adoption about in instructional design is creating experiences that are more learner centered. And so I think in terms of what you can pull, practices you can pull from learning engineering, what are some of those tools that you can use to then ensure that your designs are learner centered? Right. There's creating things like learner personas. There's engaging in focus groups to do codesign or participatory design. There's user testing or, like, help doing some rapid prototyping.
Kristin Torrence [00:34:42]:
So pulling from those strategies and tactics, I think refining our designs that are informed by that data that we're collecting through engaging with learners, collecting data about how they're experiencing it or the types of experiences that they are helping us codesign or whatever that may be, using that data to then inform learning. So definitely iterative.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:13]:
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, awesome. Okay, well, closing out here, like, to end with a couple of rapid fire questions a little bit. And I know it can be hard, especially, I know you have a bookshelf there, so you might be in a similar position to me of struggling with this one. But if you had to narrow it down, what is one book or podcast that everyone should read or listen to and why?
Kristin Torrence [00:35:41]:
Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willing and Lace Babin. It reframed my mindset about accountability. I would say it is hands down one of the best books any aspiring leader or team member can read.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:57]:
Yes. That's great. Yes. Good book. Yeah, that's a great one. Great mindset to have, for sure. Excellent. Okay, thank you.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:07]:
What skill has helped you be most successful in your life?
Kristin Torrence [00:36:14]:
Persistent effort. And just to sort of elaborate on that, it's kind of like a motto in my household. My husband and I, we always talk about how your goal and success is inputs to outputs, typically. Usually. Right. And it sounds kind of insane, but we think about if you were to reach a goal, there has to be like, what inputs would you need to exert so that it's unreasonable for you not to succeed. That requires persistent effort.
Matt Gjertsen [00:36:53]:
Alex Hermosi talks a lot about that. I don't know if you know him, but he's kind of an influencer of sorts in kind of the small business space. And, yeah, he talks a lot about that, especially with sales. He says success isn't about doing extraordinary things. It's about doing the simple things for an unreasonable amount of time.
Kristin Torrence [00:37:17]:
Yeah, that consistency.
Matt Gjertsen [00:37:19]:
Yes. So if I could double click on that. Do you have any way to differentiate between? Because I'm not saying I certainly don't. What's the difference between being persistent and being thick headed, because there is a level where you just got to say, like, okay, this is enough, this isn't working, or this is the wrong path. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Kristin Torrence [00:37:42]:
I would probably approach that. And funny to kind of just pull from the learning aspect in a more deliberate practice sort of way and so analyzing what things are working and what aren't and for the things that are working, like, double click on that. And if there's any way to optimize or shift the things that are not working, that's the area of growth. Right. And so, I guess deliberate practice in putting in that persistent effort and just being really intentional about that type of effort that you're putting in and the work that you're doing. And I think that needs to come with some level of reflection and awareness to know whether or not you're just being stubborn or whether there is that upward trajectory.
Matt Gjertsen [00:38:33]:
Well, yeah. And kind of what I hear you saying is very similar to what you said about learning design, is you got to have some success criteria. You got to have a target. You got to have an end in mind before you because you can have a way to judge your actions and see if you're going in the right direction. That makes sense. Okay. So we touched on this a little bit with one of the other, with some of our other conversation, but you get to talk and work with a lot of different learning organizations. What is the most common opportunity you see for organizations to improve their talent development?
Matt Gjertsen [00:39:26]:
What's the thing that you see most organizations get wrong or kind of undervalue regarding talent development?
Kristin Torrence [00:40:16]:
I feel like organizations tend to undervalue talent development in general in their empowerment of their employees, in reaching successes. The business, I feel like oftentimes we're overlooked because we're not technically revenue generating, while I think we help enable those revenue generators to help the business. And sometimes that's a little bit hazy, but I do feel like sometimes it's underappreciated. Or overlooked.
Matt Gjertsen [00:40:53]:
Yeah. If there's one thing that I could change in my life, more than anything else, it would be kind of exactly around what you're saying of in any organization, when you need talent, there are two ways to get that talent. You can hire them or you can develop them. And I feel, at least in my experience in the corporate world, for almost about a decade now, we have so over indexed, on hire, it's just like been the one extreme side. And it might seem super relevant to me because the military is the reverse. Because when you're a commander of a unit in the military, you have zero say of who shows up to your unit. You cannot go out and cherry pick recruits or find people. It's just people show up and you got to do what you got to do with them, right? You got to make it work.
Matt Gjertsen [00:41:46]:
And so they are over indexed and invested in putting processes in place so that no matter who shows up, the unit will succeed. And I think that is an extreme. They're both extremes. And finding a way to bring that a little bit together so that organizations see talent development as like, no, this is a key to our success. If we could do one thing, if we devoted our whole lives to making that shift, I think it would be successful careers.
Kristin Torrence [00:42:14]:
Yeah. And I do think it is up to us and having that growth mindset, it's up to us to help tell that storY.
Matt Gjertsen [00:42:21]:
100%. Awesome. Well, Kristen, thank you so much for being here today. This was a great conversation. I'm so glad we got to meet a few months ago at the ATD core Four conference, and I'm certain we will stay in close touch. Any particular places people should follow you? Reach out to you if they want to learn more about either yourself or tailspin.
Kristin Torrence [00:42:44]:
Sure, I'm available on LinkedIn. Kristen Torrance and also on Twitter. Chris Torrance LXT Excellent.
Matt Gjertsen [00:42:54]:
Okay, well, thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.
Kristin Torrence [00:42:58]:
Thanks so much for having me.
Matt Gjertsen [00:43:00]:
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