Understanding the Science of Sustained Peak Performance w/Jill Schulman
Episode Overview
Join us on this week's episode of Making Better as we welcome Jill Schulman, an inspiring former Marine Corps officer and expert in applying positive psychology to leadership development. In our enlightening dialogue, we delve into the essential components of fostering a thriving workplace—asking for help, helping others, and nurturing positive connections. Jill shares her transition from the pharmaceutical industry to becoming an advocate for evidence-based mental fitness strategies. We discuss key distinctions between evidence-based positive psychology and non-scientific self-help, debunk myths surrounding the field, and explore its impactful role in driving organizational results. Tune in for an engaging talk that offers practical insights on implementing positive psychology for sustained peak performance and well-being.
About Jill Schulman
Jill is a former USMC-Officer turned leadership maestro while navigating leading people in the military, corporate America and in volunteer organizations. She is the Founder and CEO of Breakthrough Leadership Group, a leadership development firm known for bringing evidence-based leadership development programs that drive results in organizations. Recently, Jill graduated with a Masters in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania where she learned the secret sauce of elevating well-being and workplace happiness to drive performance and the bottom line.
Follow Jill on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-schulman-0295263/
Learn more about the Breakthrough Leadership Group: https://breakthroughleadershipgroup.com/
Check out Positivity by Barbaray Fredrickson: https://amzn.to/3v9QLWl
Jill also mentioned the research that she did for her Master’s. You can take a look at her dissertation here: https://repository.upenn.edu/entities/publication/b6af4f5a-7a53-4398-83e4-e590114371b3
Full Transcript
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Jill Schulman [00:00:00]:
For us to achieve the most at work and to be the happiest at work, we need to focus on positive connecting. And there's really three elements of that, which is when we're struggling or when we're unsure, we should ask people for help. We also need to always be scanning for people in our work environment that might need help because there's a lot of evidence on pro social behavior. Like if you help someone, not only does it help them be more successful and elevates their well being at work, you actually get a big lift in your well being when you help someone else. And then last is creating an environment of just positive interactions.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:36]:
Hello and welcome to the Making Better podcast where we talk about making ourselves, our teams, and our organizations better. Whether you are a business leader, a talent development professional, or an individual contributor, this show will give you actionable insights to help improve your own performance and the performance of those around you. Today we are talking to Jill Schulman. Jill is a former Marine Corps officer who for the last decade has been helping organizations create evidence based leadership development programs that drive results. She just completed her master's in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. So that is what we're going to be talking about today. In this episode, we are going to talk about what positive psychology is and how it differs from self help, why Jill prefers the term the science of sustained peak performance and make sure to stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear the three key things your organization needs to start doing today to apply the lessons of positive psychology to improve results. Before we get to the discussion, I need to remind everyone new to the show to make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss a future episode.
Matt Gjertsen [00:01:49]:
If you are already subscribed, then I want to ask you to share this show with at least one other person because that is how we grow. I can't tell you how much it means to me. So with that, let's get into the show. So Jill, I know you started in the Marine Corps and now you spend all your time working on positive psychology. Did you get the positive psychology from the Marine Corps? Was that a big thing?
Jill Schulman [00:02:16]:
You know what? No. However, it's interesting as we get into like there's some things that make the Marine corps so special that really do tie into positive psychology. Like if you think of the camaraderie that we feel in the Marine Corps, like that sense of know you talk to any Marine and they're so proud of being a Marine because of that camaraderie. And as we talk more about what positive psychologies. We'll talk about community and feeling of belonging. So that's there. And then probably the other tie in that I think this kind of definitely shaped me as a person, and maybe I was like this before the Marine Corps, but it teaches you to persevere, to be resilient, to be tough, develop grit and all that stuff. And that's part of positive psychology.
Jill Schulman [00:03:03]:
There are some tie ins there, but, yeah, it's not about happy Clappy and joy and butterflies and rainbows in the Marine Corps.
Matt Gjertsen [00:03:12]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, like, a lot of things, though. I do think there's a lot of probably misdefinitions of a lot of this kind of. Then let's start there, since you just got your master's in positive psychology, because I do think a lot of people. You hear that, and it can sound pretty woo woo. So how do you describe positive psychology?
Jill Schulman [00:03:34]:
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked, because that is so important that people know what it is, because especially when people know me, because I've been known as someone who drives results, and I'm pretty intense about developing leadership skills and culture. So, like, Jill, what is with this positive psychology? And so thank you for an opportunity to define it. So it's not the woo woo. It's not Pollyanna. It is really. Positive psychology is the science of elevating happiness and well being in individuals, in teams, in organizations, even in society. And I will steal this example from Dr. Marty Seligman, who truly the founder of the positive psychology movement.
Jill Schulman [00:04:18]:
He is at Upenn. He's still a professor. He taught our classes. I had so many conversations with him, but he came up with a great way of really explaining what positive psychology is and differentiating it from just psychology. So if you think of psychology, what psychology traditionally is focused on is what potentially can make someone unhappy or unwell. It's really focused on mental illness or what pathology, like, someone who's clinically depressed or anxious or schizophrenic, really focused on what's wrong with people who are not well. And then what can we do that's evidence based to try to get them just okay, so they're not miserable. So if you think of a spec like negative ten being the most unwell people to get them to zero, we want to help these people so they're not miserable.
Jill Schulman [00:05:10]:
So that part of psychology is so important, and we need it. Right. But positive psychology is not any of that. It's really the scientific study of taking people that are okay or maybe even consider themselves happy, but how can they elevate it to a higher level? So let's know, Matt, maybe if you did kind of an instrument to kind of measure your level of wellbeing, you're on the positive side, like a plus three. But would you be interested in learning the evidence based strategies that can get you from a plus three to a plus six or a plus eight? And really, it's this measure of well being and happiness. So positive psychology stays on the positive side. It looks at everyone in the world. We're not just focusing on the people who are not well.
Jill Schulman [00:05:54]:
It really focuses on one and going, how can we elevate well being and happiness, which I think is a pretty noble endeavor. Why would we focus only on what makes people sick and to take away sickness? Why wouldn't we want to focus on well being?
Matt Gjertsen [00:06:10]:
Yeah, for sure. As you're talking about that, it really reminds me of what people sometimes say about the healthcare system in the US, of how it very often isn't seen as a health care system, but more of a sick care system, because it's exactly to your point. It's about something is wrong, how do we make it not wrong versus nothing's wrong, but you can be better. And so how do we focus on that better portion? That's interesting.
Jill Schulman [00:06:36]:
I love that analogy. Because the absence of disease does not mean someone is healthy, really healthy. And really, the absence of depression doesn't necessarily mean happiness or joy. Right?
Matt Gjertsen [00:06:48]:
Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:06:48]:
And then even in organizations, because, of course, I focus on applying positive psychology in organizations. So the absence of workplace dissatisfaction and disengagement does not necessarily mean people are thriving and are highly engaged at work. So I love that you brought in that analogy. And if we take it a step further, like, people who are the healthiest physically, they're not just going in because they're sick, but if people who really take their health seriously and do everything they can to be as healthy as possible, then they'd be more apt to be able to overcome sickness and disease.
Matt Gjertsen [00:07:25]:
Sure. They're going to be more robust.
Jill Schulman [00:07:27]:
So there's one area where I think psychology and positive psychology kind of overlap, where if people really focus on elevating their well being and their happiness, getting on that positive side of the spectrum, it actually protects or buffers them against what could make them sick. Right. So there's a lot of analogies to health care.
Matt Gjertsen [00:07:46]:
Yeah. Where do you think? Kind of, when I asked the question of that definitional question, mentioning kind of some people might have a woo woo kind of idea of it. I don't know. As you explored it, where do you think that comes from? Why is it seen as so strange to want to be your best self or something?
Jill Schulman [00:08:06]:
Well, I think that the difference here is, first of all, there's self help, which is like, be your best self, and then there's the science of positive psychology, and there are differences there. So we can talk about the differences there.
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:20]:
That would be.
Jill Schulman [00:08:21]:
Yeah, I mean, self help. So many self help books are amazing, and they help people identify what's important and develop some plans. But a lot of self help books are not rooted in evidence. It's people's personal opinions based on, in my experience, here's what made me really happy and successful. So do what I did. Right?
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:42]:
Sure.
Jill Schulman [00:08:43]:
So self help is really not scientifically validated or empirically validated.
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:51]:
Yes.
Jill Schulman [00:08:51]:
Whereas positive psychology is the scientific study of elevating well being. And there's sometimes a positive psychologist can make a hypothesis, and they find they do an experiment, an empirical study, and then they realize that they were actually wrong. This thing that they thought would make people happier don't. So that's a big difference between positive psychology and non evidence based, like self help. And I can use the example of a book called the Secret, and I might offend some of your listeners, because a lot of people have read the book the Secret and believe that manifesting is a secret to happiness.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:26]:
And I know there's some controversy around that book.
Jill Schulman [00:09:28]:
There is. And I would just simply say is there's not evidence to substantiate or it hasn't been repeatedly validated. So I think it's a nice thought, and I think creating a future self and thinking about what you want, as long as it's followed by action, and that's kind of what is missing. So that's really the differentiation. I'm really evidence based. Everything I do with my clients is, all right, okay. There's this leadership theory. Show me the money.
Jill Schulman [00:09:57]:
Show me the evidence. How do we know with pretty great certainty that if this intervention or this training that we do with employees or with, it's, we can be confident it's going to make an impact? So that's one differentiation. And then the last thing that just comes to mind is some people think of toxic positivity. Right, matt? Like, oh, gosh, you don't want someone who's so positive all the time, like, oh, my gosh, we've got challenges here at. And so positive psychology is not toxic positivity. I mean, if someone is so positive all the time that they can't see the challenges, then that's not good for business, and it's not helpful. Yeah. So it's definitely not Pollyanna and toxic positivity.
Jill Schulman [00:10:45]:
In fact, when you look at the way that well being is measured with individuals, and then this would carry over to organizations, there's only one out of the five elements, according to Marty Seligman's model, that talks about being smiling and being in a good mood. So that's one fifth of well being. Is that positive aspect or, like, being happy in the moment? It's a very small part of it. If you ask people, too, what makes you happy in life, what are the things that if you look back at your life or your career and you, you know, I had the best life ever. The best career, know, smiling and laughing is going to be part of it. Right. But it's not the whole this. So there's this perma model.
Jill Schulman [00:11:32]:
P stands for positive affect or positivity, so it's part of it. And Barbara Fredrickson is one of the leading researchers on it, and there's a lot of evidence on why that's really important for individuals and businesses and how it can expand positive cognition. There's so many benefits. So positivity is important, but it's only one fifth. And then the e in perma stands for engagement, or it's what chisinknihai calls flow. Right. And a lot of that. The r in perma is relationships or connections with others.
Jill Schulman [00:12:07]:
I mean, the quality of our relationships is critical for that. Then the m is meaning or mattering, and then finally accomplishment. So if you think of all that, if people just understand what is really the aim of positive psychology to elevate well being, only one fifth of it is woo woo. Or it would be.
Matt Gjertsen [00:12:30]:
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard of that model. That's really. So this is Marty Seligman's work. You wonder. We'll have to get into it a little bit more, because it almost reminds me of. What is it? Like, the big five in just psychology, like the ocean. What is it called? Ocean. Have you ever heard of that? It's like the big five.
Matt Gjertsen [00:12:56]:
Personality traits or. It's a very evidence backed. It's like openness and conscientiousness, like those big factors. It's a very rigorously evidence backed kind of model that no one uses. And the reason is because it's pure research based. It's not owned by anybody. Whereas disk or any of those kinds of are owned by people, and so they're out there selling it and pitching it, and there's advertising behind it. And so I wonder if there's any of that with this.
Jill Schulman [00:13:37]:
There's a benefit to that. In fact, you know what you're making me think of at one point, we were in one of, this is one of my classes at Upenn, and one of the discussions we're having in class is, like, the ethics of positive psychology. And someone basically suggested that making money or being profitable by helping people elevate their happiness and well being was just not the right thing to do. And I tell you, there was quite a discussion on it, but I took a really strong stance of basically claiming the opposite. In fact, I made it one of my papers I wrote for that class, really thinking that if we can help people and organizations elevate their well being to drive results, so you've got thriving people, which means thriving teams and thriving organizations. If you make the organization more successful and more profitable, we should be able to be a for profit business. So I think that making a profit means that we're doing it right. We're doing a great job of helping people understand what positive psychology is, and then what are some ways that we can bring it into organizations that are going to drive the bottom line? That definitely hits, like, a little bit of a nerve, because I'm like, no, we should be profitable.
Jill Schulman [00:14:58]:
So, hopefully, there's more people like me that are kind of bringing this new angle into organizational effectiveness or leadership development. We got to care about this stuff. It's important.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:09]:
Yeah. And I think you're that. I think it's like the Winston Churchill quote about democracy. Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. And I'll be the first to say there's tons of problems with capitalism, but there's not really a better system that we've found of really finding, okay, what works, what doesn't, what's valued, what's not. So, yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from on that, going back a little bit. You mentioned your whole career, you've been really evidence based, and so now you're really evidence based, focused with this, I would love, if you have any, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but I'd love some kind of examples of evidence based in this stuff, because, at least for me, I have a heck of a time whenever I'm trying to bring psychology into any facilitations or exercises that I'm doing, because there's so many studies out there that aren't replicable or like a classic one kind of in this positive psychology space is like power poses how that was like a big thing for a really long time. And I was like, actually, that's not doing anything.
Jill Schulman [00:16:19]:
A little woo woo for me, too, because that's so interesting because there's kind of the fluffier side of positive psychology, and that's just not me. I'm kind of like a hard edge business driver of positive psychology. But let me give you an example then. And I think I've become more evidence based throughout the years, especially, I think, just because the industry that I've mainly served. So after the Marine Corps, I got into the pharmaceutical sales industry, and then I also did a little bit of time in the device world. But I think just because I was so trained that anytime you have a discussion with doctors or thought leaders, you really have to know your evidence. And so I think the evidence based medicine growing up, kind of, that was kind of my background. Then I went into leadership development for that pharmaceutical company, and it just kind of carried over.
Jill Schulman [00:17:14]:
But one great example would be, like, in leadership development, something that you were probably taught. I was taught is the best way to give feedback is do the feedback sandwich. Everyone's just the feedback sandwich. It is definitely not effective and absolutely know that. So there's an example where someone might be really well intentioned of going like, oh, we want to help everyone to elevate their leadership effectiveness. We've got know clear, set expectations and give feedback, and they teach the feedback sandwich because there's a lot about written about it, but it's not evidence based. Adam Grant is also from Upenn, and he wrote this amazing article, and a lot of times I will share it after my sessions because people are like, but no, this is the right way to do it. And he wrote an article that says, please stop serving the feedback sandwich.
Jill Schulman [00:18:03]:
They don't like it. Or something like that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:18:05]:
Yeah.
Jill Schulman [00:18:07]:
So there's better ways to provide feedback that are rooted in psychology in general and organizational psychology and positive psychology. So there's an example.
Matt Gjertsen [00:18:17]:
Okay, yeah, I think that's a really great example. And then let's get into, you mentioned for a second there kind of your background and you're doing sales and devices and stuff, but you've been working inside organizations with organizations now on this kind of evidence based approach towards performance improvement more generally. Go into a little bit more of kind of the work that you were doing there, and then how that led you into why you landed on positive psychology as kind of the main lever that you wanted to push on.
Jill Schulman [00:18:54]:
Yeah. All right. When I first started working in the pharmaceutical industry, I got to admit to you, I don't think I was a great leader. I mean, I killed the results, so they promoted me right away. But I just kind of did what I thought was right, and I was probably too much of a driver. I had this example, and I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I can be vulnerable here. So I used to sell anti infectives, and this is many, many years ago when I first got the Marine Corps and I started carrying a bag. So I was in sales, and I used to work in anti infectives.
Jill Schulman [00:19:34]:
So I'd sell antibiotics to doctors that would prescribe it for people who are sick and as you're know, like something that you would need. So I used to go above and beyond because I was like, I had grit, and I would work on weekends and on Friday nights when no other rep would be going out, and then I would thank them for working and doing all this. So what differentiated me that allowed me to drive really high sales was that so what do you think I did when they promoted me very quickly to become a leader, wanting to help my people be as successful as I was? All right, you probably know where it goes. I'm like, yeah, here's what we're going to do. We're going to work weekends.
Matt Gjertsen [00:20:10]:
Like, did that, hey, let's have a party. Yeah, let's work it together. Let's get in the trenches together.
Jill Schulman [00:20:14]:
Let's do it right. As much as I was trying to get him excited about it, so what I found is, when I started going through leadership development classes, it really helped me realize that I was doing it wrong and there was a better way. And so I benefited so much from all the leadership development that was within my company. It really stayed with me, and it really helped my career. So my last role in the pharmaceutical industry was actually doing leadership development internally, and I just kind of found, like, that was my niche. I just absolutely loved it. What is the science behind helping people perform at their best and realizing that there's a lot of leaders out there that are like me, we just don't know any better. Like, someone who is like, oh, let's just never give people feedback because they don't want to hear it? Well, that's not what the evidence tells us, right? So I could help all these leaders who have the best of intentions like I did, but to learn what are the things that we know based on evidence are the best behaviors we need to work at in order to get better.
Jill Schulman [00:21:19]:
So that's kind of how I ended up in that space. And then I've been on my own for about ten years, breakthrough leadership group, and I've continued doing the same thing. But it's been really fun because now I work really at sometimes the organizational level in developing talent development strategy for the leaders to really drive results in the organization. So it's been fun to, I'm still leading quite a few workshops and I love it. I love creating those aha moments. But I also get to work more strategically helping an organization really understand how can we really elevate performance and what are the things that we're going to really, what type of a learning journey can we create for leaders so that we can really create the culture and the leadership skills to drive results?
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:07]:
Yeah. And so as a result of kind of diving deeper into positive psychology, are there things you're changing then? Are there things that you used to try to do with organizations that you're not going to do anymore or put pressure on different ways? How is it changing your outlook for improving that?
Jill Schulman [00:22:26]:
You know, I realized I didn't tell you how I got to positive psychology, so then I'll answer that. At one time, someone sent me a YouTube video or a TED talk of Sean acker.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:40]:
Okay.
Jill Schulman [00:22:41]:
And I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he's a horror guy and he wrote a book called the Happiness Advantage. So I just watched this twelve or 13 minutes TED talk, and I was just like, he basically outlined all the evidence where why caring about happiness at work will drive results. So he really lined up all the evidence and I was just like, wow, really? This is something. And so I watched the TED talk and then I got his book. And then he has all the references in the back because I'm like, where's the evidence? What is he citing? So then I just started having a blast because I'm super curious of just digging deeper. So then I read flow by chisink Mihai and grit by Duckworth. And, I mean, I just started digging, digging, digging, and I started learning so much. And I'm like, this.
Jill Schulman [00:23:23]:
There's something to this. This is something that can help organizations get better. And because I was spending so much time learning about it on my own, because I'm like, this is missing in a lot of organizations. We need this. And that's what made me decide to like, well, if I'm spending so much time learning about this, and I really want to master all of this information. Why not go back and learn from the founder of positive psychology, Marty? So where I am now, because I just finished earlier this year, is now trying to weave more positive psychology into what I do and really trying to help organizations see the value of doing more. So I have a vision of what I want to do, but I haven't even scratched the surface of what I want to do to bring positive psychology into organizations to drive results. Okay, ask me back in two years and then I'll tell you exactly.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:21]:
That'll be great. And I'm interested when you're just scratching that surface, but as you're starting to, and maybe this was happening before you did this program, or maybe it's something that's just happening now when you're bringing this up with leaders, because I imagine, like we talked about before, there's some pushback to this stuff. Are you leading with the idea of positive psychology, or is that something that just kind of almost more sneaks in where it's not like you're trying to hide it, you're not calling it different things, but you just don't clearly point out that that's what you're teaching.
Jill Schulman [00:24:57]:
If I look at all my peers that are, we consider ourselves positive psychology practitioners, there's kind of two different answers there. Some people are going to like, I am proud of this. I lead with it. People are interested in something different. And then there's the other part, which is if I lead with positive psychology, people are just going to say, no, thank you. So I'm really careful with the terms that I use. I really look at it. It's the psychology of sustained peak performance.
Jill Schulman [00:25:28]:
That's really the aspects of positive psychology that I look at, because as I went through my degree program, I looked at everything through the lens of what can we apply in organizations to drive results. That was my interest. So some of the woo woo stuff didn't really resonate as much with me, and I learned it and then I just kind of put it aside. So, like the science of sustained high performance or sustained peak performance or. I love the term mental fitness. The reason I like the term mental fitness is trying to convince leaders or just individuals that, hey, if you want to perform at your best, just use that analogy of like, fitness. People get it. If you want to be fit, you don't go into the gym once.
Jill Schulman [00:26:17]:
You got to continually go into the gym. And so when it comes to the psychology of peak performance, there's things that we need to do to perform at our very best from a psychological point of view. So I think those are the terms that I use more often with clients because I think it actually better represents what I bring to my clients. It is, let's build mental fitness to help buffer your organization against burnout or too much stress. How do we help people perform at their best? Peak performance, but have it sustained? It's not about working less or having more parties. It's about how do you create an environment where we leverage the science of positive psychology so that we can achieve even more? Because there's kind of a debate there, too. I don't lead with necessarily positive psychology just because I really feel passionate where this is something that organizations can start doing more of to elevate, keep key talent, prevent burnout. But calling it like the science of sustained peak performance or mental fitness is going to make people more open to.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:34]:
Listening to it, I think. So that makes sense. Yeah, because they can see there being both a spectrum on the practitioner side and then a spectrum on the organizational side of kind of what they're ready to receive. Beyond just the receiving, though, is there any evidence or research into, are these principles relatively universal, or is there some variation depending on kind of the personalities? And specifically what I'm thinking in my mind is I've worked at a lot of organizations with big engineering populations, and when I go into those organizations, I am honestly amazed at how brutal they can be to each other in terms of feedback and cut to the chase without it actually affecting them, many of them. And this is obviously very broad strokes, but just when I'm talking to you, I've seen plenty of engineering interactions where they are just very good at separating the self from the work. And so they can just have brutal conversations about feedback of, like, this was awful. And for somehow it's not like the personality or the relationship falls apart because they're able to separate those things. And so I'm not totally sure what I'm asking here.
Matt Gjertsen [00:28:55]:
One. So two questions. First, what I just described, kind of like, how does that fit in with positive psychology? And then two, are there personalities, situations, organizations where positive psychology applies differently? I guess.
Jill Schulman [00:29:16]:
Well, as you shared that example, I wouldn't think that's problematic. What you're describing is really healthy psychological.
Matt Gjertsen [00:29:23]:
Yes, I think that's right.
Jill Schulman [00:29:25]:
So I think that's what you want, is you want to develop the type of trust and relationships between people that when a project fails, they can all be comfortable sharing what went wrong so they can solve for it in the future. Again, the reason why we probably shouldn't always use the word specifically positive psychology, because people would think, oh, positive psychology means that we can't give each other brutal feedback. We can't talk about the setbacks. And that is absolutely not the case. In fact, Gabrielle Utenberg, I think I'm getting her name wrong. She wrote a book called rethinking positive thinking, and she actually, in her research, said the positive thinking that you need is to think about, like, something went horribly wrong. Right. So you need to have the optimism that we can get through this.
Jill Schulman [00:30:20]:
So we've got to be able to see, like, we can solve this. What would the future look like if we solve this? So we need to see the optimism to be able to get there, because if people can't see that it's possible to overcome something, then they just give up and they don't try. So we need that optimism. And that's not what her research is. Her research is what I'm going to say next. Optimism. There's a ton of research on just the absolute value of developing optimism in people and organizations to drive results, because, again, your belief that you can overcome it influences your actions, and your actions influence if we can overcome it or not. But what Gabrielle says in her research is you need to basically anticipate obstacles or you need to acknowledge what's wrong.
Jill Schulman [00:31:03]:
So if you're trying to overcome it, what could get in our way? What could potentially be the minefields? And I didn't even know what this was called because before I even studied positive psychology, we'd call it a pre mortem. All right, let's plan to make the project as successful as possible. Now, let's all imagine that it failed. It completely failed. Like, what are some of the things that get in our way? So that is positive psychology. We're thinking critically through it and going, interesting. So it's not all just, oh, just everything's okay? No. If things are wrong and things are really bad, let's acknowledge it.
Jill Schulman [00:31:39]:
Let's believe that together we can get through it. Let's set a goal, see a positive future, and then let's develop the grit to get through it. And grit is a part of positive psychology. Angela Duckworth, who wrote it, she's a upenn professor. She was on sabbatical, though, so she's supposed to be one of our professors and lecturing, and she wasn't here. And I'm like, I didn't got. She's still on my list.
Matt Gjertsen [00:32:00]:
Yeah, she's on the list of what I call, like, my podcast mentors, because I always listen to her no stupid questions podcast. And so actually, when you mentioned Marty Seligman, because on the no stupid questions podcast, they have like a psychology bingo card. Because Angela Duckworth, she always calls out certain people. And Marty Seligman, it's like, okay, now you have to take a drink. Because she mentioned Marty Seligman, kind of.
Jill Schulman [00:32:30]:
Like, I probably wouldn't do well in the bingo. I'd be.
Matt Gjertsen [00:32:37]:
Know what you're just saying really goes back to how you call it, the science of sustained peak performance. Because I think that's right. It's just bad branding in some ways, because you hear positive psychology, you think happy, you think good. And in many cases, it's the reverse of that.
Jill Schulman [00:32:57]:
Yeah, exactly. And then when I did my research, because part of the master's program is at the end, you have to do a capstone, which is just kind of like, okay, take a deep dive where you want to. So when I did that, and this is just doing like a literature review and looking at all the evidence and me pulling out what I think is most beneficial to organizations, what I found that is most relevant to organizations is not a lot of the stuff that we would call wooie. In fact, my research question specifically, Matthew was asking, okay, what are the things that we know elevate well being that have direct evidence? Number two, what are the interventions or the things that not only elevate well being, but have a direct relationship and been studied that can elevate performance or results so that now probably like 90% of the studies just fell out because they don't study the impact on results.
Matt Gjertsen [00:33:51]:
Sure.
Jill Schulman [00:33:51]:
So then I had that kind of as my filter, and then my last filter was, what is going to have a high likelihood of widespread adoption or acceptance and adoption. So what are people not going to roll their eyes after? And at one point, when I was the beginning of my program at maP, map stands for masters of applied positive psychology. So the UPenn program. And we had an assignment to talk to a friend or a loved one about something, to have a discussion. So I started having this conversation with my husband about basically the Perma model I outlined and what's an area we could elevate? And we started talking about this. And my husband was just being very polite, just very polite, going. Trying to play along. And I'm like, what is going on? He's like, this is a bunch of hooi.
Jill Schulman [00:34:34]:
He just kind of gave me that, and I loved it because I'm like, you're my audience in the workplace, there's people like you. They're going to go, oh, my God, this is a bunch of fluffy stuff. So my third question was, what would be something that my husband, he's like the 55 year old white male who's been in, what would he actually go? I understand this and I would do this. So that was the stringent criteria that I came up with, was those three questions. So it kind of filtered out any of the stuff that would be the woo woo.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:10]:
Well, then I feel like we have the logical conclusion or near conclusion of the discussion of are there like, you're thinking about speaking to talent development professionals inside a company? They don't have a big team. They're leading leadership development, performance development courses within their organization. What are a couple of things that pass those litmus tests that apply to performance are evidence backed, and that your husband would be like, oh, that sounds interesting.
Jill Schulman [00:35:42]:
Yeah. So at a very high level, and you can always give your listeners like a link to the entire page. They're probably not going to write, but they can just read the abstract.
Matt Gjertsen [00:35:54]:
Absolutely.
Jill Schulman [00:35:55]:
So the three things are what I call positive mindsetting, which know people who are doing talent development is what could they add to their program that includes basically growth mindset? It's like, how do we take what Carol Dweck taught us about growth mindset, which a lot of it is focused on kids in schools, but how do we develop that growth mindset in the organization? And normally we don't do that. What we do in organizations is we think about, like, okay, what are the skills people need to do their job? They need to learn how to do accounting better and learn about the products and how to sell. And we do all the selling skills. So what I would suggest is let's, of course, teach people definitely how to do their job better, but also let's teach them just some core skills. Doesn't take a lot of time that can help with that sustained peak performance. So one is for people to understand that growth mindset that maybe they're not great at something right now, but with hard work and effort, they can get better over time. So growth mindset number one. Also, the mindset around stress I'm sure you're familiar with, like Kelly McGonagall or Aliyah Crumb, are some leading researchers on stress mindset.
Jill Schulman [00:37:05]:
So one thing that you can add into the learning is that stress is not bad for you. It's not going to kill you. That's what everyone thinks, right? Stress can be the stepping stones to make us stronger and better. And your beliefs on stress impacts your reaction to stress. So Aliyah Crumb, like, I'm going to be really quick with this one because I know I have two more things to go through. But Alia Crumb did this study. It was at UBS, that big finance company, like high stress. And her intervention was everyone had to watch a video that was, I don't remember how many minutes.
Jill Schulman [00:37:40]:
It was like 10 minutes. Like, everyone in the organization had to watch a video. They didn't know that half people were watching a video that said, stress is horrible. It's going to kill you. Oh, my God. Stress is the worst thing ever. You want to eliminate it. The other half, the organization watched a video, same length of time that said, stress is something that challenges you to be your best.
Jill Schulman [00:37:58]:
It makes you smarter, it makes you stronger. So it's like exact same video, but one said, stress is horrible when stress is better. And then she measured performance and she measured health outcomes. So, like, performance statistically significantly better. If someone just watched a ten minute video learning that stress, the one thing we're not going to be able to change, Matthews and organizations, we're not going to take away work and we're not going to let people just come in and whistle and relax and take naps. People are going to work hard and there's going to be challenges and there'll be adversity. There will be stress that is not realistic to change that. We need to make people better at stress.
Jill Schulman [00:38:34]:
And just changing the mindset of stress is one of them. So, statistical significant difference in workplace satisfaction, performance and health outcomes. She actually measured HBA one C, blood sugar and blood pressure. That's ten minute video. So your listeners could look into that. So in general, it's like mindset, growth mindset, how we perceive stress and then also positivity. And then the second really bucket in my mental fitness model is about applying positive psychology to the goal setting process. And I work with so many clients, and when you talk about goal setting, it's like performance management.
Jill Schulman [00:39:14]:
Like, oh, kill me now.
Matt Gjertsen [00:39:17]:
We just finished up that phase. It's end of year performance reviews. Goal setting.
Jill Schulman [00:39:22]:
Yeah, people hate it. That is such a miss. Goal setting should be such a positive, inspiring thing. So I developed a model on how to smash your goals. It's just an acronym, Smash. And each of the letters is like a little positive psychology, like boost. That can help.
Matt Gjertsen [00:39:42]:
Very cool.
Jill Schulman [00:39:42]:
Yeah. Again, all that will be linked. It's nothing against smart goals. Love smart goals. But if you want to smash the goals, then let's apply positive psychology in the goal setting process. There's that. And then the last thing which we should spend more time on it, which is positive connecting. It's really teaching people that for us to achieve the most at work and to be the happiest at work, we need to focus on positive connecting.
Jill Schulman [00:40:12]:
And there's really three elements of that, which is when we're struggling or when we're unsure, we should ask people for help. So teaching the skill of who are five, six, seven people at work that are going to be on your Rolodex, this is the person with the expertise. This is the person that I can ask or I can vent to. So we need to ask for help that's going to help us achieve our challenging goals. We also need to always be scanning for people in our work environment that might need help, because there's a lot of evidence on pro social behavior. Like, if you help someone, not only does it help them be more successful and elevates their well being at work, you actually get a big lift in your well being when you help someone else. And then last is creating an environment of just positive interactions. So high quality connections or high quality interactions, it comes out of University of Michigan.
Jill Schulman [00:41:06]:
And there's so much science behind how when there's positive interactions between people, and you can teach people how to do it, it creates energy. Like, if I meet you, Matt, when you and I met, and we're like, if I see you in the hallway and go, hey, what's, how's your know? Just if I do something positive, it can even just be like one or 2 minutes. That positivity.
Matt Gjertsen [00:41:23]:
Yeah, it doesn't take a lot of.
Jill Schulman [00:41:24]:
Time, so it creates energy in the workplace, which is the engine of getting things done. So as I applied that criteria there, like, mindset, we need the mindset that's critical to peak performance. As we're achieving really challenging goals, then we should apply the smash framework to help achieve those goals or smash those goals. And we've got to be intentional about teaching people how to build positive connections that are going to not only serve our people, but it's going to serve the business and drive the business.
Matt Gjertsen [00:41:55]:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, we're definitely going to have to have you back on, especially as you start applying this more in organizations, and dive deeper into each one of those things. But I want to make sure to protect your time for tonight. You've been so gracious. Thank you so much for being here. So I want to close out with the three questions that we kind of always try to close out the show of you just finished your master's. So it might be hard for you to identify one book.
Matt Gjertsen [00:42:20]:
But if you could come down to one book or podcast that people should listen to, what would you recommend? Right now?
Jill Schulman [00:42:27]:
Just one. I have like five written down here now.
Matt Gjertsen [00:42:29]:
Just one.
Jill Schulman [00:42:31]:
You know what I would say? Positivity by Barbara Frederickson.
Matt Gjertsen [00:42:37]:
Okay.
Jill Schulman [00:42:37]:
I love that book. And the reason why is sometimes people think, and this is just great for them at work, because she talks about the benefit of positivity or positive affect, positive mood basically, and how it expands our cognitive ability. It makes us more able to make those positive connections. So she outlines why it's great at work, but she really talks about how it can help individual people thrive. All the science behind it. So it's fantastic. It's a short read, it's practical, and a lot of people think mistakingly. And I was just at a book club last night and I don't know how it came up, but I was kind of making the point that we can generate our own emotions.
Matt Gjertsen [00:43:24]:
Yes.
Jill Schulman [00:43:24]:
And someone's like, no, emotions have to us. And they just haven't. I'm like, no, there's a book, maybe it'll be our next book club. But it teaches people how they can generate the emotions needed in order to best serve their life, their meeting as a leader. So it's a lot of emotional intelligence. It's emotional intelligence, but she gives strategies on how you can do it. If you need to change your emotional state to be most effective to lead a meeting, here's how. That would be a great one.
Jill Schulman [00:43:59]:
I think everyone should read it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:44:01]:
Perfect. Speaking of the emotions, have you read how emotions are made? No. You got to pick that book up. I thought that was the book you were reference had seen earlier how emotions are made by Lisa Feldman Barrett. Very cool book.
Jill Schulman [00:44:16]:
I love that because I have read other books by her, like the seven and a half truths about the brain. Yes, I know her work. She's a brilliant scientist. So thank will. I will put on my list.
Matt Gjertsen [00:44:28]:
Absolutely. Great. Okay, so then when you think back on, you've had quite the career, spanned lots of different places. If you had to think of one skill that has most helped you be successful in life, what would you pick?
Jill Schulman [00:44:47]:
Probably just you ask me for a skill, but just what comes to mind is I love challenges, so I'm comfortable discomfort, I get energized by it. I've kind of got that grit. So I think for me, always seeking to do something new and different and to challenge myself. That has led to better fulfillment because I just love learning and growing. But also it's led to my success in my career instead of staying kind of stagnant in a position. So if I were to boil it down to one, it would be that seeking out the skill would be maybe it's mindset, developing the mindset that I can do more and then picking that next goal and setting goals that are outside of my comfort zone and then tenaciously going after it.
Matt Gjertsen [00:45:42]:
That makes sense. Fantastic. And then also in your career, you've worked with a lot of different organizations. As you think about the organizations you've worked with, what is the most common opportunity you see for organizations to improve their talent development practices?
Jill Schulman [00:46:01]:
Gosh, I feel like I could go on for an hour there.
Matt Gjertsen [00:46:04]:
That's the challenge.
Jill Schulman [00:46:05]:
Boil it down is as talent development professionals and I consider my, I'm part of that because I partner with companies to get it right. We need to put as much effort into thinking about not just what's in the solution, the workshop, but what's going to happen after. It drives crazy when call me and they want to throw money at me, come in and do a workshop and I'm like, well, let's talk about what are you going to do before to set the stage. And then here's all the stuff you're going to have to do after to really make sure that these skills stick. And if a client is not interested in the conversation or say, no, we just want you to come in and speak, I'll say, I don't work with you. I'm interested in only creating meaningful change. So I think as talent development professionals, we need to be thinking about not just what's the great workshop, but spend at least half of our time thinking about what are we going to do to help make sure that the skill that they've learned can be practiced again and again in the workplace. And that's our job because our employees and companies, they are trying to learn and grow.
Jill Schulman [00:47:10]:
And they'll sign up for workshops and they'll go and they'll learn and they'll be excited and they'll have this great action plan and most of the time it just fades and it's not lasting. So we have to help them as an organization. We need to support the stickiness of it. So I think as the instructional designers or talent develop and we're like, well, we're going to do a good thing and we're just going to make them like pinky promise, you're going to do it. You promise you're going to do it? Okay, good. And then we just let them go. And we need to focus more on the science of habit. How do we integrate that stuff in the implementation? So I think we just need to spend a lot more time on that.
Jill Schulman [00:47:46]:
Let's actually teach people less and make sure it sticks. And I think we're going to.
Matt Gjertsen [00:47:52]:
That's the phrase right there. Let's teach people less, but make sure it sticks. That's it right there. Awesome. Well, Jill, I'm really happy you took time out. We're, we're recording this in the middle of the holidays. Like everybody's busy. So thank you so much for being here today.
Matt Gjertsen [00:48:09]:
This is really great. I definitely got a lot out of this. I'm sure all the listeners did. So thank you so much and have a great end to your year.
Jill Schulman [00:48:18]:
Thank you. And thank you so much for having me. It's so fun seeing you again and talking about this important subject, and it was an absolute honor to be on your podcast. So thank you for inviting me.
Matt Gjertsen [00:48:30]:
Thank you. Bye everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you liked the discussion, make sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. As a reminder, if your team is struggling keeping up with the training development demands of your organization, we want to help. Better everyday Studios is a full service instructional design team that can help you with everything from ideation to actual content creation and delivery. Please reach out to us using the link in the episode notes below. Have a great day.
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