Understanding the Supreme Court’s Impact on DEI w/David Rudd
Episode Overview
Welcome to another episode of Making Better, the podcast that explores important topics in the realm of learning and development. I'm your host, Matt Gjertsen, and today we have a thought-provoking discussion lined up for you. Joining me is David Rudd, an expert in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives. Our focus today revolves around the recent Supreme Court decision on affirmative action and its potential impact on DEI in the corporate world.
We start off by diving into the role of communications in promoting DEI within organizations, with Matt sharing his expertise in helping companies effectively express their commitment to diversity and inclusion. Then, we delve into the specifics of the Supreme Court decision and its implications for corporate learning and development. We clarify the misconceptions about the legality of DEI programs and highlight the importance of continuing efforts to foster equal opportunity in the workplace.
Throughout our conversation, we address the uncertainty surrounding the future of DEI initiatives in light of this ruling. We emphasize the countless studies demonstrating the positive impact of diversity on companies, both socially and financially. We challenge the notion of running from diversity and urge organizations to embrace it as a strategic advantage in an increasingly diverse workforce and marketplace.
Tune in to gain valuable insights and perspectives on navigating the evolving landscape of DEI in the corporate world. Together, let's explore how to make better, more inclusive environments where everyone can thrive. Stay tuned for a compelling and enlightening conversation on Making Better.
About David Rudd
David is a communication advisor to private and public sector leaders. He co-owns Rudd Resources with his wife, Kimberley. The firm centers equity in its services, which are aimed at uplifting and informing audiences, especially those in underrepresented or underserved groups. After the recent Supreme Court decisions on Affirmative Action, I was really excited to chat with David about the impacts this may eventually have on corporate DEI initiatives and how practitioners can protect their programs.
Full Transcript
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David Rudd [00:00:00]:
And I think that another thing that L and D people in particular can do is just continue to advertise your interest in getting people from nontraditional backgrounds. You read a lot now about how it needs to be about skills and not credentials. And I really believe that, you know, one of the things that as a small business that's really important for us is that we not just say we only want people who've worked at other public relations firms or we only want people who understand how to talk to media. It's great if you come in with that experience, but we have people who work for us who have wonderful transferable skills throughout their career and now they're doing things at a high level that they never thought they could do.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:45]:
David. Welcome to the Making Better podcast. How are you doing today?
David Rudd [00:00:48]:
Great, Matt. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:53]:
Absolutely. I am really excited to have you on because a little while ago so what we're going to be talking about today for all the listeners is the Supreme Court's affirmative action decision that came down relatively recently. And I'll admit, like I said at the beginning talking to you, I didn't immediately connect it to the corporate world. Right. I thought college admissions, okay, that's a thing. There's a whole discussion to be had about it, but I didn't immediately connect it to more directly what I do. And then I start listening to podcasts about the decision and it seems like there's definitely some relevancy there. And so I thought there was really some great space for a discussion of how do we think this is going to impact corporate learning and development, de I functions, what can we be doing to what? Should we be adjusting how we operate within organizations?
David Rudd [00:01:49]:
Yes.
Matt Gjertsen [00:01:50]:
That's kind of set the frame of the discussion. But before we get to that, I'd love to hear from you. So what's your background kind of how did you arrive at doing stuff kind of in the de, I sure.
David Rudd [00:02:01]:
Thanks. Yeah. So communications is everything for us at Rudd Resources. And that means that when we are approached about supporting diversity, equity and inclusion programs at a corporate level, we look at that in terms of how do you communicate what you're doing, your commitment to it, how important it is to the mission of your organization or your company. So typically what we will do is just that consult from the standpoint of messaging, what are the channels, who are the people who need to talk about corporate diversity, equity and inclusion within your organization? And we've done that for Fortune 500 companies. We've done it for smaller organizations. We did a lot a few years ago in the aftermath of the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor Tragedies, when people were just not sure what to say about their mission. They wanted to make sure that they were seen as good corporate citizens.
David Rudd [00:02:56]:
They wanted to make sure that they held on to their employees. And oftentimes we were asked to give our advice and counsel on how to express all of those good intentions and plans. So that's sort of how we come to it, is making sure that people feel comfortable communicating their mission and their values when it comes to de.
Matt Gjertsen [00:03:17]:
I that's awesome. And I think that's one of the reasons that I was excited to have you on about this is because you've interacted with so many different organizations through this kind of lens of talking to lots of different teams that are practicing. So you've probably seen a lot of different stuff. So could you give us a quick lay? Land know, I think most people have probably seen they know there was a Supreme Court decision about affirmative action, but what was it? What happened?
David Rudd [00:03:49]:
Sure. So just by way of a quick overview so in Students for Fair Admissions versus President and Fellows of Harvard College, both of Harvard College and the University of North Carolina, the Supreme Court struck down race conscious admissions at colleges and universities. So I'll repeat that they struck down race conscious admissions at colleges and universities. But what people should understand are many things people should understand, just factually before we even get into the reaction to the judgment, is that employers can still lawfully implement diversity, equity, and inclusion and accessibility programs that are seeking to ensure workers of all backgrounds are afforded equal opportunity in the workplace. So there's nothing that says you should no longer you got vulnerability. You can't do this legally in the workforce when it comes to ensuring equal opportunity. So that's one of the key things to know if you are in a company or you're thinking about learning and development programs for your employees.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:51]:
I think that's a big one because I know, just like everything in today's world, everybody wants to take it to the extreme. And I know there were some organizations on certain extremes that were saying dei is now illegal and it clearly is not right. Fairness is never going to be equal or is never going to be illegal. And so I think from our perspective, with all things in the Supreme Court, there's a very specific thing that they're ruling on that's right. And then everything else until it is at some point now, many other things could be brought in front of the Court with this as a precedent, but until that precedent is applied, it doesn't mean it does anything other than the ruling. So I think that's always a really important take.
David Rudd [00:05:45]:
That is the key I think that's one of the key observations, Matt, is that we are now in a period of great legal ambiguity. What will it mean for hiring practices and recruitment and retention practices? What will it mean for how you address matters of diversity from all angles, LGBTQ plus racial, gender, all of it? Faith based diversity, all of it. One of the things that there are many things that we know about diversity, but one thing is that it has many dimensions that all need to be respected and we just don't know exactly what this could mean. But to your point, there are advocates on one side of the spectrum that are eager to say, this means that all de I programs are done and it's a wrap. And they are eager to come after hiring programs and are eager to go after some of the most well known global brands that we know and attack them on their diversity equity inclusion programs. And we'll get into it. But I think that what you'll hear me say a few times in this conversation is that those organizations simply need to be focused on the future. And the future continues to and trends continue to show us the workforce is becoming more diverse.
David Rudd [00:07:01]:
Talent comes in all packages. In any organization that's approaching this from the standpoint of fear, I have to protect a position lest I get sued, I think is automatically and already sort of on the wrong side of the argument, is probably doomed to fail in some way.
Matt Gjertsen [00:07:18]:
I mean, that's just a great point to footstop right there of just like, if anytime you're making corporate decisions from a point of fear or from a point of defense versus from a point of engagement and embracing and wanting to do the right thing, bring in the best people, there's clearly a right way to kind of set those policies.
David Rudd [00:07:43]:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. We'll get into all of this. But study after study, and I know that you're into this as well study after study has shown that companies that are intentional and determined about diversity, equity, inclusion simply do better. It's not just a social right thing to do, it's financially the right thing to do. When you look at their returns on investment, when you look at their cash flow, obviously, when you look at innovation, I think we've seen for years now the benefits from a bottom line perspective of diversity. So I just couldn't understand why a company would want to run from that, especially when you look at your future marketplace and your future workforce.
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely some studies we can link to in the show notes for that. Outside of that, just like since so much of this is, as you said, kind of a point of ambiguity or a moment of ambiguity, are you having discussions where people like, what are people seeing of kind of the direction this is going? Are there initial implications that people are expecting in their workplaces regards to programs that it's going to affect or decisions from executive leadership that they're making differently, or are you hearing anything in the discussions that you're having?
David Rudd [00:09:02]:
Well, one thing that fortunately I'm not hearing is this retrenchment in this fear that we talk about. I think that's probably in large part, Matt, because of the company that we keep. The company that we keep will include organizations and companies that will remain very serious about their commitment. I just today learned of a client, one of the Fortune 500 clients that we've had, that wants to move forward on a conference that advances diversity and a conference that's focused on leadership within the ranks of its black and Latinx employees. So really gratified to hear that. But what I can speak to is what I read, and I definitely read that people are concerned about an assault on their programs. They're concerned that we will retreat back to a position of compliance when it comes to diversity and equity inclusion. I think when you talk about the trajectory of De I programs accompanies in the past, it typically starts with compliance.
David Rudd [00:10:08]:
We simply have to do what the law requires and mandates that we do, and then it graduates into, well, we want to do this because it's the right thing to do, because we want to be seen as a good corporate neighbor. We want to have good CSR reports, and then it graduates to we recognize, as I was saying a minute ago, the value that De I has with regards to how we make money and how we innovate. So I think that there are concerns that we will retreat back to that compliance position. And I've read know, I've read that people are concerned know lawsuits and they're going to not let's be real about that. Those lawsuits are going to come, no question about it. But I think that I tend to lean on the side of let's not be too concerned about compliant. Let's take this as it comes. As you said, one ruling about college admissions does not beget automatically a string of actions that should be taken at a company and certainly within its learning and development programs
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:10]:
Yeah. And as you were talking about those kind of different levels, one thing that also struck me is when you think about what the case was about, it was much more feeling about that compliance realm of checkboxes and numbers and quotas. And that tends to be what people think of when they think of affirmative action, right or wrong. That's often what comes to mind. And when you think of broader diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, that's the most basic beginning point you should be at anyway. If that's all you're doing with your program, then there's so much more richness of what it takes to create. You can do a lot of work creating an inclusive culture without doing anything around quotas or tracking or anything like that. Yeah
Matt Gjertsen [00:12:07]:
What are those other things that you've seen with some of the teams that seem to work really well?
David Rudd [00:12:13]:
Well, one thing that I think is really going to be important in the wake of this decision is sort of a focus on allyship. Right. So we understand that within companies you'll have the affinity group ERGs, you'll have programs and systems that are set up to create safe spaces. You'll even have programs that are designed to have special learning and training programs to help employees of Color rise through the ranks. And all of that needs to be accompanied by sponsors and allies. And so I think that what we'll definitely see is the need to promote allyship and companies that are serious about promoting and maintaining talent. And as I said, and I'll always say, talent comes in all packages. So if you are a believer of that, then you will want to make sure that you have a whole network of allies and sponsors who are supporting those African American or women or LGBTQ plus professionals as they try to rise to the ranks of the company.
David Rudd [00:13:17]:
So that allyship is going to really be important and really incentivizing. It showing that we take this so seriously that we want our allies to see the benefit to them personally in their careers by really getting behind and supporting and lifting up emerging talent in that way. And I think that another thing that L and D people in particular can do is just continue to advertise your interest in getting people from nontraditional backgrounds. You read a lot now about how it needs to be about skills and not credentials. And I really believe that one of the things that as a small business that's really important for us is that we not just say we only want people who've worked at other public relations firms or we only want people who understand how to talk to media. It's great if you come in with that experience. But we have people who work for us who have wonderful transferable skills throughout their career and now they're doing things at a high level that they never thought they could do. So I think even for a small company like ours, a micro company like ours, we show what can be done at a large company if you expand your thinking and sort of open the aperture and really let different kinds of talent shine through.
David Rudd [00:14:32]:
And that's part and parcel of what comes with de.
Matt Gjertsen [00:14:34]:
I yeah. And that I think that expansion phrase can be used in a lot of ways. Because I think one thing that I was going to ask a little bit later on is for learning professionals, dei practitioners, what are some of the things that you can do to whether it's defend programs or continue to promote programs in kind of a different thought environment or headspace around this? One of them seems to be just expanding what you think of as De and I. These are just good ideas. They're not good diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives. They're just good initiatives. And I think that's something that broader L D is really focusing on a lot right now is this shift on business results and business initiatives aligning learning with the business. And I think that's probably part of this whole discussion is just like as long as you need to be talking about what's the right thing and the good thing for the business and it's going to be creating a more diverse, equal and inclusive culture, that's just what's going to happen.
David Rudd [00:15:41]:
And that's right because it's the right thing to do. Because just look at the trends. The workforce is diversifying. We know that the workforce is diversifying. That's a fact. One of the facts that we also see across so many companies, unfortunately too many companies, is that at the senior management or leadership ranks, that's where it's not so diverse and that's still a hill that needs to be climbed. And I think many companies are trying to have put in place programs that structurally get at that problem is that we need to understand the special considerations and this was what they are. We need to understand the special considerations and issues confronted by people of difference as they try to ascend into management and senior management ranks.
David Rudd [00:16:26]:
We still have that hill to climb. I was just reading a trend report that said that one of the trends is we'll need to basically account for people's lack of social skills. Right. Because of what we've just gone through with the pandemic and they just don't know how to relate to people from a social skills standpoint. So if we're willing to make those accommodations, why can't we make accommodations for diversity in so many ways?
Matt Gjertsen [00:16:48]:
Yeah, no, I think that's right. That's totally right. So I imagine from your perspective, you're talking to a lot of the C suite or at least the higher level folks and getting as they're bringing, choosing whether or not to bring you in to work with them, though. You're specifically talking about messaging. What suggestions do you have for practitioners in the business out there to help advance this message in a way that's going to resonate with higher level leadership? The episode before this one got released was a sales episode where we had somebody who specialized in sales and the whole discussion was about how do you have to talk differently in some ways or the frontline cares about different things than the managers and the directors, than the executive level. And it's about tailoring your message when it comes to the discussions that you have around this, what messaging do you see as really effective?
David Rudd [00:17:54]:
I think one key message is effective, Matt, and that is future proof your company from talent drain talented people. And like I said, talent comes in. Every package will understand when they are at a company that does not sort of walk the talk when it comes to creating a safe place where I can feel comfortable expressing my unique values and opinions. They'll see that they'll be able to see right through the lip service and go someplace else. And it's well documented. And you and your listeners know far better than I do how much you lose when you have to lose an employee and then pay to onboard a new employee. I know that from the standpoint of even a small business. So why wouldn't you want to future proof your company against talent drains and against talented people leaving? So I think to me when it comes to structuring effective training and development programs they need to be structured and presented in a way that recognizes difference, in a way that recognizes inclusion, in a way that recognizes that different is not deficient.
David Rudd [00:19:02]:
Right? We may process information differently, we may see the world differently but that does not make me deficient relative to anybody else. So all of these things I like to say that DNI really stands for diligence and intentionality. That to me is really what it means. Right? So if you're going to be diligent in the face of these headwinds if you're going to be intentional in the face of these headwinds we don't know what's coming next. We know the college admissions have been impacted unfortunately and that gets into a talent pipeline issue. I'll talk about that in a you know, if you're going to be serious about keeping the best people in a constantly diversifying world then you shouldn't be too shaken by what the Supreme Court has done. We'll see what the future holds. But one thing I mentioned a second ago is that this decision could really impact the pipeline.
David Rudd [00:19:56]:
I sit here as an African American man. I co own a business with an African American woman who's my wife and we both went to Northwestern University. We went to school in the late eighty s and so things were much better than they were 30 years ago when black folks couldn't even live on campus. Not very long ago. But even what's going on with the athletic department right now we're proud alumni of Northwestern University. We know people who proudly went to Ivy League schools and my son and daughters went to great SEC schools and we know that they are able to claim proud membership in those alumni groups because they had special attention paid to their needs. Everybody should have access to those schools. We have to acknowledge the historical and systemic barriers that have prevented talent of all packages and colors from reaching admission into Ivy League schools or reaching the senior management levels at ExxonMobil or PepsiCo, whatever the case may be.
David Rudd [00:21:03]:
So we still have these issues to confront and they're structural and they're systemic. We cannot be deterred by one Supreme Court ruling because again we have to be, as I said, diligent and intentional.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:18]:
Yeah. And kind of on that point I think even if no matter what you think about this decision, what seems to be a good thing coming out of the decision is it's already started. I think I've seen at least one lawsuit targeting legacy admissions which if you know about college admissions.
David Rudd [00:21:40]:
That's right.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:43]:
That could be a big game changer. It could be. But to keep going down this road like you mentioned so the pipeline issue, it kind of makes corporate deni initiatives all the more important then.
David Rudd [00:21:56]:
Yes.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:57]:
We need to be all the more active of looking for new places of talent because you can't just automatically say college degree, I believe it's not going to get you the kind of pool that you need to be effective long term.
David Rudd [00:22:12]:
That's one of the things that I've always loved, Matt, about working in De I work is that it forces you to just really disrupt your past ways of thinking. Right. It really forces you to ask yourself, are my learning and development programs really helpful to the people who are going to be my future employees and my future leaders? Are they really maximizing their experience in my company? Or do I need to break it all up and reinvent what I do from an L D perspective? Do I need to break up what I do from a recruitment perspective? Like you just said, you can't say, well, this person checks the box, went to Yale, went to Harvard Law, belonged to this secret society. Whatever the case may be, you are totally shutting yourself off from all rivers of talent. If you just sort of think in those traditional boxes and try to check those boxes, then really the thing that upsets me most is this mentality of loss. I have to protect something or else I'm going to lose. As opposed I'm going to open up my arms and gain that much more. That's what we're really talking about here.
David Rudd [00:23:15]:
And smart companies recognize that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:18]:
Yeah. And I think it's also that pipeline of I always think about it as the pipeline of ideas. Right. It's just like our ideas come from our experiences, full stop. There's nowhere else for them to come from. And so if everyone in your workforce has the same experiences, they're going to have the same ideas. And the only way you can branch out is by getting different experiences. And that can be by hiring different races, different genders, different sexualities, different socioeconomic statuses.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:51]:
The range of what it means to be diverse is diverse. That's right. So I think there's always a new way to look at this, which is, I think, what makes it so interesting.
David Rudd [00:24:07]:
But also challenging it is a challenge. And part of the challenge is obviously we'll have to keep an eye on what happens now that this ruling has come down. We'll have to keep a close eye on things that I don't think that means we go catatonic. I don't think that means that smart companies will retrench into this position of let's defend ourselves against assault. I'd say go on the offense. Really continue on your path of attracting people who will allow you to capitalize on markets of the future and talents of the future. If you look at why do companies cut costs? Why do companies make investments in other companies? Because they want to grow. So at the end of the day, what we're talking about here is growing through DNI, not sort of holding back our growth.
Matt Gjertsen [00:24:53]:
I love that. So if I was to kind of think about this discussion and the main takeaways, the two main points that I have so far are one, it's a single decision in an isolated situation. Let's not over inflate what it means. It has a very mean so that's.
David Rudd [00:25:10]:
The one, like you said, with any Supreme Court decision, that's how you have to treat each one. Right?
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:15]:
Exactly. With any Supreme Court decision. And then the second thing is, if there is a message or a way to act differently, it's just to continue to focus. De I on, like you said, connecting your efforts to growth to impact, to things that you're able to accomplish through it not compliance, because not only is that not necessarily as helpful in the long run, it's just not what you want to be focusing on at this point
David Rudd [00:25:49]:
I don't think so. I think it's a good way to drive your talent away at a time when no company should be trying to push people away. You should be trying to retain and grow the very best and attract the very best. And like I said, employees will see right through a toxic culture, and they'll go someplace else. They simply will just go someplace else. I mean, it all sizes. Companies see that every day. So why would you obsolete yourself and shut yourself off from talent as opposed to really saying, no, we're committed to this, and we want you here.
David Rudd [00:26:22]:
We want you to grow here. And that's, to me, again, from a communication standpoint, those are some of the key messages. If I were putting together a message house, as we like to call it, here at Rudd Resources, that would be the key message as, we want you here, and we are committed to your growth here.
Matt Gjertsen [00:26:37]:
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, this has been this has been awesome. David, anything that we haven't covered? I know you spent some time preparing for this conversation. Any key things that you think people need to know before we close?
David Rudd [00:26:53]:
Know just really, as said, Matt, just continue to be diligent and be intentional. We still have challenges at that senior leadership level. So continue to be committed in those spaces. Continue to be committed to open recruitment, and just recognize that your employees are not dumb. They've got options in this day and age because of shortages. Every trend that I read talks about labor shortages. So if they're not happy with you, they'll be happy someplace else. So why would you risk it?
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:24]:
Yes, I think that's 100% right. Well, thank you so much for the conversation, David. It's been great. I definitely think we'll talk more soon.
David Rudd [00:27:33]:
Sounds good. Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:41]:
Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you liked the discussion, make sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. As a reminder, if your team is struggling keeping up with the training development demands of your organization, we want to help. Better Everyday Studios is a full service instructional design team that can help you with everything from ideation to actual content creation and delivery. Please reach out to us using the link in the episode notes below. Have a great day.
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