Getting Support for Your Learning Initiatives w/Sean Adams
Episode Overview
Sean Adams is an expert in sales, systems and processes, and instructional design, and is currently heading up the sales team at Iorad. In this episode, we'll be diving into the crucial topic of getting support for your learning initiatives.
Translating between the bottom-up and top-down perspectives is essential in addressing this breakdown. Sean emphasizes the importance of speaking the language of both frontline managers and top-level leadership to ensure effective communication. Knowing who you are speaking to and adjusting your language accordingly is key.
Drawing from his own experience as a small business owner who had to learn how to sell his services, Sean relates the process of identifying stakeholders, understanding their problems, and offering solutions to the field of learning and development. He shares strategies to align your storytelling strategy with corporate initiatives and priorities, making your learning initiatives more relevant and impactful.
Throughout this episode, Sean encourages a curious mindset, the desire to learn from others' expertise, and the exploration of successful outcomes and customer insights. These insights can help you identify champions for your initiatives and make a strong case for resources and support.
So, if you're ready to gain the support you need for your learning initiatives, tune in to this episode of Making Better. It's time to level up your skills and start making a bigger impact in your organization. Let's get started!
About Sean Adams
Sean Adams is the Head of Sales and Partnership at Iorad. As I have been focusing on growing my business, I have had to learn a lot about sales. More and more, I am finding that learning teams could learn a lot from sales teams about how to get buy-in on learning initiatives.
Full Transcript
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Sean Adams [00:00:00]:
So when we're trying to understand the problem in our initial talk track to get a champion, we're starting bottom up. When we're trying to actually get something signed or approved or budget to be allocated, we also need to understand a top down decision-making process. How and why do they actually make the decision they do?
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:21]:
Welcome to Making Better, a podcast from Better Everyday Studios devoted to helping small learning teams have a big impact. Today I am talking to Sean Adams, the head of sales and partnership at Iorad. As I've been focusing on growing my business, I've had to learn a lot about sales. More and more, I am finding that learning teams could learn a lot from sales teams about how to get buy in on learning initiatives. So that's what I want to talk to Sean about today. Let's dive in.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:48]:
Sean. Welcome to the Making Better podcast. How are you doing today?
Sean Adams [00:00:52]:
Matt, it's great to be here. I'm doing excellent. Thanks for having me.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:55]:
Awesome. Yeah. We are fresh off of the July 4 holiday, so I think both of us have a little bit, we're a little bit rested. A little bit more energy, and I'm really excited to have you on today. I already gave a little bit of an introduction to you, but to start off, I'd love for you to introduce yourself. We normally have learning development professionals on the show and so you might actually be one of our first guests that isn't more core to learning and development. So tell us a little bit more about you.
Sean Adams [00:01:25]:
Yeah, so just really quick background. I spent the first about ten years of my career in the small business world. I owned a couple of service based companies and went through all the trials and tribulations of how not to run a company. And one of the main things that I really learned was around systems and processes, or lack thereof. And I kind of got obsessed with this once I realized what a gaping hole I had in my mindset and the organizations themselves and actually spent the better end of that period of my life actually kind of documenting all of these things and trying to share this with others. Actually had an opportunity to sell off my small business, did consulting work, helping people to kind of adopt systems and processes and bring software into their organizations. And what I found out, fast forwarding to kind of where I am now is I was doing L and D type of work and kind of light instructional design in some of the programs and courses and systems we were building. And it's kind of a strange way to get into it, but basically I moved into doing software sales, selling a lot of the solutions that I was helping to implement or helping to enlighten for folks, and eventually found my way into Iorad, where I head up the sales team here. And we actually sell to LND and to a lot of sales enablement programs, those looking to kind of document how they do what they do, specifically with product or digital walkthroughs. So any kind of training of a place where you're going to take a screenshot to explain something, we're helping you build interactive tutorial content in that capacity.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:53]:
Awesome. Yeah. And then that's how you and I met through Iorad. We were at DevLearn in Vegas last year, I believe. And yeah, for though, this isn't meant to be a session. This isn't going to be a show on Iorad, but it is an excellent product. I've used it before. I think it's exactly what you say is it's a really simple way to help document processes of any software that you're using within your organization. So really super simple way to do it. But the thing that grabbed my attention and the reason I wanted to talk to you today is because I as a small business owner, the thing that I've had to teach myself is how to sell. Right? Like, when I went out on my own, the main focus of going from being inside a company to being outside of a company is I need to learn how to sell my services. And so I've been reading a lot of sales books, and I was reading a book called Predictable Prospecting and it was talking about basically how to identify stakeholders and figure out what their pains are so that you can help solve those pains and sell to those pains. And when I sat back and thought about it, one of the biggest things in learning and development that we always talk about is trying to get a seat at the table, trying to seem relevant. And really what that entails is identifying stakeholders in the company that have problems that we can solve. Identifying those problems and telling them that we can help solve them. So it's a sales problem. Right? It's just like we've been hearing a lot the last couple of years of the connection between LND and marketing. I think there's just as much of a connection between LND and Real pure sales. So what I'd love to start off with is talking to you on the stakeholder side. From a sales point of view, how do you think about identifying stakeholders in a business to try to sell to?
Sean Adams [00:04:48]:
Yeah, so just to map out a little bit of a structure for this conversation, I would say we'll break down what I call like, the pain holder. So this is the end user, the person who's actually going to have the pain, the stakeholder, the decision maker, and the person, like, holding the purse strings. I think that people outside of sales tend to think that they're all the same person or that's one or two people 100%. It's actually more likely going to be a committee of folks that are going to have all of those different roles or wear all those different hats in separate departments, or at least in separate circles. And so recording this to 2023, I think the most relevant thing to put in the table is everyone, regardless if you are working internally at an L and D org or selling services external to customers, you work to the CFO or someone else's CFO, right?
Matt Gjertsen [00:05:34]:
Yeah.
Sean Adams [00:05:34]:
That is the person who is justifying budget. And they are running ROI calculations on every process, every hire, and every motion in every organization, including things that a company is looking to purchase. And so when you think about those sort of things, it's never been more relevant to be able to identify and sort of quantify the ROI of a program or a new purchase if we're selling a solution or a product to someone. So that would be like laying the base, kind of.
Matt Gjertsen [00:06:03]:
That's great. I think that's a really great distinction of that, who's the pain holder versus who's the stakeholder versus who's the actual purse string holder.
Sean Adams [00:06:13]:
Absolutely, yeah. The analogy I always use is in the medical field, right? So the end user is more like the patient, right? So this might be the person who's waving their hand, going, I have this gaping learning need and I need help with this thing. But they are probably not the ones who are deciding on allocating budget. The people allocating budget are the insurance company. Right. They're this third party, ambiguous, super confusing, large entity that we don't always have a lot of insight to, and we often don't have the ear of either. And so when you think about it through that lens, you have to understand how we're going to get up to those decision makers. The decision makers, in my experience, rarely are the ones who have the pain. And so I like to take this bottoms up approach, and if I can find the pain holder, the person with the gaping need, the person that came asking questions about how to improve a process or buy our technology or buy our service, we can use them as champions.
Sean Adams [00:07:12]:
And that's a really key word in the sales world. You'll hear this come up a lot, and it's the idea of can we find someone externally or even if it's our own coworker, but someone who can be a champion for our program or our initiative to help get buy in upward, who's actually going to pull the strings, right? Who is actually going to allocate budget and resources to us. And so when you focus on the people who have the pain, it's an emotional experience for them. You're making their day better, you're making their life better, you're making them get a promotion or not get fired or whatever measurable assets that they are thinking about in their life. And when you can improve or impact them in that way, they begin to fight on your behalf when you're not in the room. And the reality is a lot of these decisions. Again, whether we're selling something to a customer or we're selling something up our own food chain, internally, decisions get made when we're not in the room a lot of the times. And you mentioned the seat at the table most of the time, that's a metaphorical statement.
Sean Adams [00:08:13]:
We're trying to make an impact, but we don't actually get a board seat as a learning professional. We don't actually get, say, in an initiatives call or a quarterly earnings call or something like that. And so the idea is using a cohort of pain holders to help bolster that case and allow them to help you paint the picture of what the decision making process looks like. That is fundamental to actually understanding the decision maker. And then you kind of work backwards to see when there's a big enough committee, the decision maker is going to pay attention.
Matt Gjertsen [00:08:46]:
And that totally makes sense. I love that distinction of it's almost unrealistic to get a quote, unquote seat at the table. When you're a central learning function and you're serving all these different interests, you're not going to get a seat at the table of production leadership and of supply chain leadership and of the sales team leadership. Like, it's not going to happen. And so rather, it's finding that manager, that director that does have that real pain that you can connect with. I think one thing that I always talk to people about is find someone who not only has a real pain, but has a belief in training. They came from the military. They came from GE that already invests a ton in training. So they've seen it firsthand to get as your champion, who you're using their seat at the table because you're never realistically going to get a seat at all the tables.
Sean Adams [00:09:39]:
Spot on.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:40]:
Awesome. Okay. So that's a great way to think about how to identify kind of those right people. One thing that I've found really interesting as I've gotten into this world is as you think about the different levels of the chain from the pain holder up to the CFO, is how you kind of adjust what that pain is or what the problem is that you're saying you're going to solve. Like you mentioned, at the ground level, it's a very emotional conversation. It's a real thing to them. But I feel like that changes as you go up. Like when you get to the CFO, it's not going to be an emotional discussion, right?
Sean Adams [00:10:16]:
Yeah, exactly. So it's a multithreaded approach. Right? So when we're trying to understand the problem in our initial talk track to get a champion, we're starting bottom up for the most part. When we're trying to actually get something signed or approved or budget to be allocated, we also need to understand a top down decision making process. How and why do they actually make the decisions they do? And so some ways to think about this are, again, it's going to be very unemotional the higher you go on that chain, like you said it's going to be. There's some committee, there's this ROI, there's this approval structure and boom, yes, let's go ahead and move forward with that. So the way that I like to think about this is like, you need to attach your champions like groundswell that initial build and figure out the talk track to present that to someone up the food chain through the lens of a corporate initiative.
Sean Adams [00:11:14]:
And that sounds like a bunch of jargon I just threw together. But the idea is like, if I'm a CRO, a CFO, whatever, that C suite or VP level that's making this decision. When you've identified who those people are, you have to also figure out what is going to make them get a promotion or the new bonus, or stay in their job or get fired over. And when you start thinking about their world now, you're thinking about, okay, how are they going to make those decisions on the new resource that they're going to allocate? And so what we'll think about is like, okay, what are the corporate initiatives? So let's say the company just came out with every quarter they have a new set of this is what we care about. So let's take a rudimentary example. We're in a tough time in terms of financial, global, macro economy and the C suite and the board and everybody else is saying, hey, listen, we need to retain our customers overall, that's our number one initiative this quarter this year, whatever. So you know, that down the food chain, they are hearing that from their manager. And so how do we tell the story of the pain through that lens? Because that's actually what they're caring about.
Sean Adams [00:12:23]:
So we're looking downward through their decision making lens and saying, okay, well, I could say something like, well, this is a lot of work for me as an L and D professional. I can't do all this myself. I need all these resources, right? They don't give a crap about that. That's not going to be enough to move the table. What you need to do is tie your problem pain solution framework to their initiative. So if it's hey asking a couple of why based questions. So when we're looking at churn or customers leaving us or a retention issue asking why that's happening now? And if you can unpack down to root cause of why that's happening, you might understand that the pain that the end user is experiencing is probably right there linked with the core root problem of what they're trying to solve from the top down. And so it might be that the training or the knowledge base or the course material for customers is terrible.
Sean Adams [00:13:16]:
Like, there really isn't a lot of good resources for them to learn more and to fully be utilizing the power of your product or service. That is a very easy thing for you to attach your training or learning program to. Well look, forget about me and that Iorad or this solution is going to be a better help for my job. This is going to attach to that core initiative. You don't want customers to churn. Well if you want those customers to understand how to use your product better then they need to be able to experience it. They need something interactive. They need to be able to self serve this content and have a good ROI in doing so. This is why I'm presenting this solution to that problem. But it was through their narrative, if that makes sense. So it's top down. Our bottom up is understanding that problem and then top down is understanding how the decision gets made and we have to be able to speak both those languages to actually get buy in kind of across the board.
Matt Gjertsen [00:14:07]:
And I'm guessing that means you can kind of take you're going to identify the root need kind of the same way regardless when it comes to identifying a pain in the business. That basic needs analysis, that kind of happens the same way. But then you're left with a decision when you transition from bottom up to top down kind of how you speak to that problem. And whereas in 2019 you might have been speaking the language of expansion and growth and that's why we need to solve this problem now you're speaking a language that's more about, like you said, retention and limiting losses because the right argument at the wrong time is still the wrong argument. And so it's all about framing that pain in a way that matches what leadership cares about today. That's what it sounds like.
Sean Adams [00:15:02]:
That's exactly right. That's where I think a lot of learning professionals may go wrong. It's just their delivery and presentation of what is a very important part of the corporate structure just delivered in a way that hasn't been framed for impact. It's been framed through the lens of like a me focused approach. It's very much like, oh well, it's obvious to me that we need these learning initiatives and these programs and this headcount and this tool and when they flip that to someone who has no idea what you're talking about in learning, they're like, no, I don't see how that just use a Google Doc, just use this tool. So they are just looking for you to figure it out versus you tying that to that larger initiative where they can actually justify because you're putting things in their language which is a totally different shift. And that's the thing where everyone is a seller, right? We're all selling something and understanding the skills that you're talking about here are exactly it. It's the way in which we can present and use that stakeholder's language to support our argument even if it might seem like we're putting their needs first.
Sean Adams [00:16:06]:
It's all in that self serving interest yeah, absolutely.
Matt Gjertsen [00:16:10]:
And it's interesting because I think this speaks to something that I've noticed in just about every organization I've talked to, is there is a real breakdown. And it can be at a different point in the chain, but there is some break between what the people on the ground, like the frontline managers see as the need and what the top level leadership see as the need. And I think a lot of it probably is to do with translating between the bottom up and the top down somewhere along the way. It could be at the director level, it could be at the VP level. Somewhere at every company, it changes of which they're caring about more. And I think you're spot on is being able to speak both languages is critical once you're speaking to both languages, I guess. In your experience, just from the sales point of view, how do you manage the process forward of, you know, who you're talking to, you know, the right language to speak to each person in the process? I don't know. Do you have to make sure how hard is it to make sure you're speaking the right language in the right moment? Or how do you keep the process moving forward?
Sean Adams [00:17:18]:
Yeah, so to oversimplify this a bit, I talk about a concept called show versus tell, which sounds very obvious, but rarely actually gets executed. And that's that in any decision that's going to be happening, someone is taking a leap of faith that what you're telling them is something you're actually going to do right. And those things don't always align. And if you haven't built up trust or they haven't worked with you enough, or you've proven that maybe something else fell apart elsewhere, that person, it's kind of eroded their confidence in saying yes to whatever you want them to say yes to. So the big thing that I try to focus on with people is we need to have resources and value that we can show, not just a bunch of junk that we can tell them we're going to do. Here's what could happen. If you give me money, I might do this, I could do this. They don't instill a lot of confidence.
Sean Adams [00:18:06]:
So I'm a big proponent in two elements of this proof of concepts and portfolios. So if I'm a learning professional, I'm thinking about every previous job that I've done. And in the future, anything I'm going to do separate from my day to day functions, on my own personal accounts in a Google Drive, I don't care where it is, document every project and initiative you've worked on, where it started, how it's going and how it ended. And documenting your impact in those things. How you thought about it, the wins, the losses, what you do differently. Writing those things down like a journal. It helps you build this portfolio of your expertise that's quantifiable and easy to understand. So when you go ask management or you figure out who the stakeholders are, you're not going, well, I've got this random idea, and I Googled a bunch of crap, and here's what I think we should do.
Sean Adams [00:18:55]:
It's like, yeah, there's an element of that. But also, let me show you previous success elsewhere. I've formulated this through what my previous experience was, the actual results that we got. I framed that for our unique scenario now, and here's what I would suggest we do. And when you frame it in this social proof of a previous scenario with the hyper personalized to this particular company and this initiative, you know, they care about, you're starting to write things in this executive brief type way. Like, if you look at Fortune 100 companies, those CEOs get executive briefs, like a president, like the President of the United States every day, every week. Here's the things that we have. Here's the decisions I made, why I made them.
Sean Adams [00:19:39]:
And it's more of just like a check in. Like, they're just reviewing what's going on. They're not always even making those decisions. And when you can get things down to that crystallized language of showing them what you would do, it makes the decision so much easier for them to make because it feels tangible. It's not talking in theory. Right?
Matt Gjertsen [00:19:57]:
Yeah.
Sean Adams [00:19:58]:
So that would be what I would do if I have that experience, if I have those resources to pull from. If I don't have those or I'm earlier in my career, I need to figure out a proof of concept. So especially now when budgets are so tight, you have to figure out what is the minimal MVP, what is the minimal product we can put together that will show some level of Viability? And if it's instead of it being a one year initiative that we're rolling out, what's the one month version of that? What is the minimal commitment that we can get to show a little bit of value, to get a little bit of trust and a little bit of confidence so I can get more resources. Right, and sometimes you need to have both of those at your disposal, depending on where you are. But those are just a couple of examples of what to do once you've identified those stakeholders.
Matt Gjertsen [00:20:43]:
Yeah, and I think everything you just said, too, is such a reason why it's important to think about the little stuff or the basic blocking and tackling. I remember years ago hearing about somebody who is kind of like head of payroll in the company or head of compensation, and they went to the head of HR saying, like, hey, I really want to get involved in these larger talent initiatives of how do we manage talent better with our pay structure and get into new high level stuff, of how to structure bonus programs and all this kind of stuff. And they were presenting this, I think, to their boss and then to the C suite and some other executive just said like, look, our people aren't getting consistently paid on time. Why would I talk to you about these big picture initiatives when people aren't getting paid on time? And I think in the training world it's the same thing. Is your compliance training good or engaging? Are people doing it? Is the learning management system filled with a bunch of courses that nobody takes? The bigger the project, the bigger the initiative, the greater the proof is going to be required for them to buy into it and buy into the idea. So I love that. What you're talking about is the stakeholders are going to need some proof of concept, whether that's history of you and your learning team in the organization or some MVP that you're kind of bringing to show that you can move this forward. And that's where the buying thinking of it like a seller is so important because it is the exact same thing.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:31]:
They're signing off on resources, they're signing off on something and so they're going to be almost think of in their eyes, think of yourself as if you were a vendor and approach them in that way.
Sean Adams [00:22:45]:
Totally. That's exactly it. The basic of the origin of sales is just it's not about you, it's all about the other person. And your singular goal is just to figure out if I am wearing their lens and looking forward, what would I care about? Not you in your current state, but you if you're them and doing your best to make some assumptions about what you think is going to be helpful and valuable to them. And that exercise, I know it hypersimplifies this, but in every aspect of everything you do internally, externally, getting a job, getting hired, hiring someone, thinking through that lens of the other person is like the entire thing. Because all you're trying to do is get again that trust, that confidence and conviction from somebody else. And the only way to do that is to show that you give a crap that you took the time to think about someone other than yourself. And it's like the golden rule type of thing.
Sean Adams [00:23:34]:
But man, you look at the corporate world and you're like, obviously this is not sinking in because I don't get that experience in talking to a lot of people.
Matt Gjertsen [00:23:41]:
Yeah. And I think if this is your first time doing this, if you're at a company and learning isn't necessarily like some big central thing or you're relatively new and you've never thought about from this perspective, I can almost guarantee that the first time you hold that mirror up, it can be startling. It's going to take you a bit to really get to a point where you feel like, oh, this is the value that I'm bringing. Because if you've never done this before, there's a good chance that when you look at it from the other side, you're going to be like, oh, this is why they don't think we're able to deliver this stuff. And that's great. It's good to uncover that so that you can get better. What are some other things from the sales perspective that training can use, that learning and development teams can use to get more buy in from leadership? You think?
Sean Adams [00:24:35]:
Yeah. So for me I'm thinking through the idea of just having a curious and learning based mindset. So in everything that we go and do as a learning professional, you have mastered or have a subject matter expertise in adult learning or in knowledge and skill development. That is your sweet spot. And so your job inherently is to kind of pick and choose how we can apply those things to all these other departments which just innately you're not going to know very much about. Right. If you weren't a salesperson, you're not going to know that much about that role if you're not the person running payroll ODS are you don't know that much about that place. And so it allows you to go in as the novice.
Sean Adams [00:25:15]:
And I think that's actually a really good thing to lean into because you can go in and ask questions like an investigative journalist to oversimplify process because almost everyone has broken processes of how they do stuff, how they go about their day, how they interact with other departments, how things get done. So it's not just that sitting down and interviewing them and saying and then what? And then what? And then what? That's a part of it, right? We all understand we have to do that, but it's trying to understand the flow. And when you open that world up from that curious perspective, I really just want to understand when you use this acronym, tell me exactly what that means because I don't actually know what you mean by that and breaking those things down. Everyone wants to teach and feel like they have some level of knowledge and expertise. And this is something I train all of our sellers to do is to think like that, that you go in with some assumptions in some world, but you're there to learn more about their process and make them the kind of showcase of this entire program that you're trying to extract their subject matter expertise. That's the whole vision. So that curiosity I think, is huge. And being obsessed with the connective tissue, right? So we're going in asking a lot of questions, asking why those things happen the way that they do, but then trying to think through the flow of those processes and how they connect to the greater org. Going back to getting decision making.
Sean Adams [00:26:41]:
These things that happen in Silos are really what kills. Organizations like this payroll team operates like this. They've been doing it for the past six years. That's how everything works. And then it gets handed across the fence to somebody else and it falls apart, right? Because those things are operating in Silos. So as a learning professional, if you can think through the connective tissue of what would streamline that process, what would be helpful? Asking them, what are you complaining about in Slack about that other department? Where does the ball get dropped that makes you look bad? And when you can ask those sort of questions to figure out, like, low hanging fruit that no one else is picking up, it's a great place for the learning team to go, well, that's just like, we just got to put this little process in. Or we just need, like, one doc to explain this, or like one little mini course or a micro learning or a card explaining that that pops up on the screen here.
Sean Adams [00:27:33]:
It helps you think through what those busy professionals don't have the time to think through. And it's often the connective tissue, at least in my experience.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:42]:
Yeah. And that's one of the best things that LND teams can do. It's one of the benefits that we can bring is being that external view. They can see all the connective tissue. So leaning into it is huge, is hugely important for us so that it can be effective. Awesome. Well, I think it's such a great perspective to have of changing your mindset to a little bit of thinking like a salesperson and thinking about, okay, what is finding that bottom up pain where it's more of an emotional decision. Transitioning to that top down language, where it's more of a logical decision, is really, I think, a great way to think about how to build LND services within an organization. So any final parting shots for us? Any final things you want to make sure to bring up, Sean?
Sean Adams [00:28:30]:
The last thing I would say is just thinking through previous successes. So even if they weren't your success, so if it's something customer facing, who are your successful customers can you be a part of, like we do customer insight interviews where we just simply ask the before state, before you started using us, the current state, when you were trying to ramp us up, and then the after state of using us and why you continue to and then that just tells you volumes of information about what was successful, what the bottlenecks were, what the pain was. You can do that for internal programs, too. Like, what was the last successful learning program that got rolled out, if there was one? What is something that everyone goes to, oh, there's this really great Confluence page or this blah, whatever doc somewhere everyone goes to that. That's the Bible. That's what's always worked really well for us and understanding what that success looked like and why those things happened, to figure out how we can help replicate that. Right. So it doesn't always have to come from you.
Sean Adams [00:29:26]:
It doesn't always have to come from a previous work that you were at. Lean into the success and the human nature you're going against change at every one of these levels. People do not want to change. They want to keep doing what they've always been doing. And so if you can lean into the success they've already had, but make it that you're taking up the connective tissue, you're figuring out where the gaps are and you're just improving, and iterating you're not changing. People are a little less hesitant, right. You're like asking them for their true biased feedback. You want to know what their position is and you want to help them shine in their golden process, but just help improve the things that kind of stink, but build on top of the stuff that's been working, right? It doesn't have to always be this overhaul where we're going to rip and replace, right? I think the Iterative mindset is another thing that gets overlooked.
Sean Adams [00:30:15]:
People are always looking to optimize and optimize, and that's great, but you can burn a lot of bridges in that process.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:20]:
Yeah. And that's where, again, the benefit of being internal is that it's a lot easier for us to, quote, unquote, sell iteratively because there's not that massive buying decision of bringing somebody in. We can do it a little bit at a time. So that's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been a really great discussion. I was really looking forward to this. For everybody listening, make sure to check out Iorad.
Matt Gjertsen [00:30:46]:
I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes because I do really think it's a great product, which is one of the reasons I wanted to bring Sean on. But also, thank you so much for all of the sales tips that you brought today. So thank you so much.
Sean Adams [00:30:59]:
Thanks, Matt
Matt Gjertsen [31:00]:
Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you liked the discussion, make sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. As a reminder, if your team is struggling keeping up with the training development demands of your organization, we want to help. Better Everyday Studios is a full service instructional design team that can help you with everything from ideation to actual content creation and delivery. Please reach out to us using the link in the episode notes below.
Matt Gjertsen [00:31:26]:
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