You Need to Launch Your Learning Programs Faster w/Keri Barnett-Howell
Episode Overview
Welcome back to another episode of Making Better, the podcast that helps you improve your learning and development programs. In today's episode, we have an insightful conversation with Keri Barnett-Howell, a guest who shares their experiences and strategies for launching learning programs faster. Keri takes us through their journey of transforming a manual mentoring program into a scalable and successful initiative. They discuss the importance of taking action, embracing failure, and continuously learning from it. Additionally, Keri delves into the challenges and victories of implementing leadership development programs, internship initiatives, and structured mentorship. Stay tuned as we explore the power of investing in teaching and learning, while also addressing diversity, equity, and inclusion in L&D. Get ready to launch your learning programs faster and make a positive impact in your organization. Let's dive in!
About Keri Barnett-Howell
Keri Barnett-Howell is the Director of Talent Development at Mission Cloud where she leads employee growth initiatives and strategies to help every Mission team member achieve their professional goals. She has created training and development programs for all career levels, with a particular focus on early career and career transitions. With her experience building the talent team at Mission Cloud from the ground up, I am really excited for this conversation.
Full Transcript
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Keri Barnett-Howell [00:00:00]:
And this can be really difficult for small companies because we're so focused on building, right? Like, we build so many programs, so there's usually nothing there. So we're building and building and building, and sometimes you just need to build a lot before you can measure anything. Like, you just don't know what to measure. But I've always been like, just build it and then we'll figure out what happened afterwards. Like, as long as you build in ways that you can check back on things like you're fine.
Matt Gjertsen [00:00:21]:
Welcome to Making Better, a podcast from Better Everyday Studios to voted to helping small learning teams have a big impact. Today I am talking to Carrie Barnett Howe, the Director of Talent Development at Mission Cloud, where she leads employee growth initiatives and strategies to help every Mission team member achieve their professional goals. She has created training and development programs for all career levels with a particular focus on early career and career transitions with her experience building the talent team at Mission Cloud from the ground up. I am really excited for this conversation. Let's dive in. Okay, Carrie. Welcome to the making. Better podcast. How are you doing today?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:00:59]:
I'm fabulous. Thursday. Got a long weekend ahead of us. Couldn't be done.
Matt Gjertsen [00:01:03]:
Yeah, long weekend. We're going into the 4 July weekend right now. Super exciting. We've known each other for quite a while now. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but actually you might be one of the biggest reasons why Better Video Studios exists right now because you were one of my early clients, like long term clients that really set us up on a path. So I am super thankful to count you as a colleague, a friend and everything. So thank you so much for agreeing to also be on the show today.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:01:39]:
Yes. I never knew that. That's awesome. Yeah, we have worked together for kind of years now.
Matt Gjertsen [00:01:44]:
I feel like at this point yeah, it's been over two years. Yeah, just over two years now. It's awesome. If you could just give the listeners just a little bit of a background on who you are and your background in LND.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:01:56]:
Yeah. So my name is Carrie. I am the director of Talent development at Mission Cloud. We are an AWS Premier partner. We are a cloud consulting company. We're about 300 people now, but I started at Mission when it was about 50 people, so four years ago. So we have grown quite a bit, lots of plans to keep growing. And my job is to provide training development for the entire company and for people trying to enter cloud careers. So we have a program called Evolution, and what that covers is kind of everything you can think of. So that's our cloud literacy commitment, where we sponsor students to study for AWS certification. That's our internships and apprenticeships to get people into cloud careers. And then that's all the career development programs that modern corporations need in this day and age. So leadership, development training programs, training materials, one on one, coaching, mentoring, all that stuff falls under my umbrella.
Matt Gjertsen [00:02:48]:
Yeah, I got to say, I've always been really impressed with the kinds of programs you all have, especially for a startup with a few hundred people. I think I'll actually start there. What I want to focus on today is kind of what it's like to build a team. And I mean, 50 people. Most companies do not start an L and D team with 50 people. So what was that like? And what do you think was kind of the impetus for starting it so early?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:03:16]:
Yeah, Mission Cloud has always been crazy focused on development, which is awesome. That's one of our core values. We have six core values. One of them is continuous growth. And I know for some companies, core values, I mean, sometimes they have a crazy long list and it's too much, but we really focus in on these. And so continuous growth has always been a value of ours. I had a predecessor before I joined Mission Cloud. So from pretty much day one, they knew that they needed to invest in this. And part of that is just the nature of cloud industries in general. There is an enormous talent gap. There's just not enough cloud engineers for what a lot of these companies want.
Matt Gjertsen [00:03:48]:
That makes sense coming.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:03:49]:
I mean, I think can't remember the exact stats, but I think it was something like we have like 6% of these needed engineers for the growth projected. So they knew very early on that we needed to have development programs. They also had a really strong sense of stewardship at the beginning. So we feel as though we are stewards of cloud industries and that we have a chance because this is a somewhat early technology, we have an opportunity to change the landscape and change the face, especially in terms of diversity and equity in technology. So if we can invest and perhaps even overinvest in development, growth, apprenticeship programs, we have the opportunity to change the narrative around what tech is and especially what cloud industries are.
Matt Gjertsen [00:04:31]:
Yeah, and I'm sure that makes sense. Even more so with AI and the huge explosion there because AI is great, but you need a system for that AI to run on. You need data for it to ingest and processes to get that data from wherever it's housed into the AI system, and then from the AI system into some customer facing product. So I can only imagine the growth is only the need and the demands of those skills are only increasing.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:05:00]:
Yes. And when I joined Mission Cloud, so my background is not tech at all. My background is healthcare. I actually have a master's in public health. And so, you know, I was going to be doing all sorts of public health work, running Medicaid programs, that kind of thing. And instead I kind of crept my way into tech, and I worked at a health tech company for a little bit up in the Bay Area before I moved to Los Angeles and joined. So when I joined, I didn't understand the necessity of cloud engineering. I didn't know what the Internet was. I just genuinely didn't know. I was like, there are computers, they work. I don't know, they talk. Sure, that's fine. But when I finally started to understand, oh, people come to America, they see our highways, and they're like, oh my gosh, your country invested so much in the infrastructure of roads, right? And the fact that I in California can drive across the country to Washington DC. That's an enormous feat of engineering. It is the exact same on the backend on the Internet side. And I had no clue. I had no clue that there were people literally building the infrastructure of the Internet. And exactly what you were talking about. We have a data analytics and machine learning team that does the exact things you're saying. How to pipeline data from one place to another, how to make it into an ingestible form, how to use the things that you have to be able to get into AI, get into the technologies that are cutting edge. And so coming to Mission Cloud, it was like, oh my God, there's this whole world that I just had no idea of, and here we are. But these careers are so interesting and there's so much work to be done, and we're still, I think, a lot of ways, the infancy of what it is. And so, yeah, there's spaces. It was a really cool way to start. Not only was I a person responsible for others development, but I also had massive development just by learning about this industry in general.
Matt Gjertsen [00:06:49]:
Yeah, absolutely. So then with that big need and knowledge gap and growth, how did you figure out where to start? You talked about all the programs you have. It's not like we as learning professionals know you don't snap your fingers and the programs are there. How did you figure out how to start chewing on it?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:07:08]:
Yeah, a lot of accidents, kind of. It was a lot of trial and error. And I think part of the challenge with a growing startup and I think why you have these conversations, people at small companies, is that when you grow at the speed we did, the needs that you have at day one are just absolutely not the needs you have at day 600. And so it was a constantly evolving landscape. So when I was prepping for this conversation, I was looking back at in 2020, what were the goals that I had for the year, what were my quarterly goals, all that. And of course, everything got blown up by the pandemic. So we had all of these things we were trying to do, and then it got super sideways. But the very first goals that I had before we knew any of that was coming were internships, building out more internships and certifications. So that's kind of where I started, was, we are a small company and we need to be legitimate in the eyes of the industry. So what does that look like? Well, that looks like we need certifications that prove that we have the knowledge that we say we have. And I know that there's a lot of debate around, do certifications really work? And all that kind of stuff. But it was very important to us to be at that level where AWS could look at us and say, okay, every one of your engineers is certified. We know that you have quality work here. Especially because at that point, we had just maintained, you know, we were sort of at this very infancy level. So that's where I started, was like, how do we become legitimate in the eyes of the industry? What do we need for that? And how do we start moving towards the commitments that we've made to bring cloud literacy and cloud careers to other people? And those are my two main objectives for a long time. And I started to tap away at some of the big corporate objectives that people always have, like leadership development programs. And I kind of hate those sometimes because they're so hard and they're so hard to do well. And so I tried a bunch of different stuff, and we were small enough that we could experiment. I could bring in outside vendors to do trainings. Okay, that didn't work. Let's toss that. Let's try something else. Let's try mentorship. Oh, no, I don't like how I structured that. Let's do this. It's been four years of honestly, like, experimentation to see how do we do corporate training and do it better than I've seen it done at other companies.
Matt Gjertsen [00:09:18]:
Yeah, I really loved how you started that with it couldn't have been more business focused, right? You're like, we're a startup. We need to be seen as legitimate in the eyes of the industry. How do we do that? How can learning help solve that problem? Which is just such a business first mindset and then you solve that problem, and then it was only after you did that that you're like, okay, I guess there's this traditional L and D stuff that we need to do too. But I think a lot of people aren't able to do that. They think they have to do the one before the other. And it's important to kind of step back and question that, I suppose. One other thing that you said during that that I really thought was interesting was, I know you admission you have quarterly goals and with that fast growth, because I think a lot of companies, they have bigger annual goal cycles or they plan a little bit longer. I would guess having that quarterly cycle baked in really helped with the iteration process of your learning development programs.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:10:25]:
Yeah. I am so surprised by companies that don't do quarterly planning because I don't know how you plan for a year and stick to that plan ever. Probably every year I've been at Mission Cloud, we've done annual planning, and then half of those go out the window very quickly. My boss is going to kill me for saying that, but.
Matt Gjertsen [00:10:45]:
I think anybody that's being honest is going to agree with that statement.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:10:49]:
It's really hard to know. You have your goal. Of course you want to get somewhere, but how you're going to get there is going to change so much. Sometimes quarterly planning is not enough. Sometimes. I've often gotten a couple of weeks into the quarter and been like, oh no, that's not going to work. Or you finish the objective and then you're like, well, it actually wasn't as useful as I thought. Like, we just had one recently where we were worrying about, should we implement sales enablement coaching into some of our programs? And we decided against it because the timing wasn't quite right. But the quarterly goal had been to research it and get certified in it and figure out, hey, how do we actually pop this into our program? So we didn't do it, but all the research and the prep for that was a really good idea to say, like, okay, this actually isn't the right part. Yeah, we really needed the quarterly planning process because we just switched directions so many times. And like you're saying in a startup, L D cannot be LND focused. It can't be myopic. It has to be what is the business need? And literally every single quarter, what are we doing to help that? Otherwise, you kind of don't have a point.
Matt Gjertsen [00:11:51]:
Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned a few of the iterations that some of them work, some of them didn't. Some things you decide not to do. Would you say there are key indicators? What are you using to determine what's a success and what's not, or what works and what doesn't?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:12:07]:
Yeah, this is something I spent years researching. What are the best KPIs for L. D? And I think I'm coming to the conclusion that there isn't really a good way to say, because the best one right. Everybody wants to say ROI, like, we prove we save the company money in some way. And I don't think there's a good way in data to show all of the pieces of, like, I did X, Y, and Z, and therefore we saved X amount of dollars. Sometimes you can have that, but a lot of times you're not going to be able to make that super causal inference of, I have these five programs and employee tenure was good, so therefore I saved us X. It's too many steps removed. But I think the KPIs that I've started to use and this can be really difficult for small companies because we're so focused on building, right? Like, we build so many programs and there's usually nothing there. So we're building and building and building, and sometimes you just need to build a lot before you can measure anything. You just don't know what to measure until you built the thing. And I know I'm going against what a lot of books, everything is like, make the program and decide what success metrics are. Maybe this is not good, but I've always been like, just build it, and then we'll figure out what happened afterwards. As long as you build in ways that you can check back on things, you're fine. So, for example, last year I did a big analysis of all of our evolution programs. So we have a list of, I don't know, like ten programs in the company that we call our evolution programs. And what I wanted to see is who admission, who had gotten a promotion or a role change had used those programs. So who had just like basically how many touches had they had with the programs that our departments have? Because I can't prove that because they had X program, they got the promotion, but I can say if they tended to use more programs than the average bear, that probably shows that the stuff we're doing is working. And so the analysis I did was really positive and that it showed that I think 80% of people who had gotten a promotion or role change at that time we had eight programs, had used at least four of the eight programs. So they had touched talent development in a bunch of different ways. They'd gotten support in a bunch of different ways. And so I felt like that was a really powerful statement of the programs we are offering are used by people, and the people that are using them are seeing career growth. Maybe it's not like the exact straight arrow, but those things did help them. And so that's one way that I really see success. I mean, we need to be doing more analysis on that, and I'll be doing higher level stuff. Right now, just the way we collect data makes it really difficult to compare people who didn't get promotions to the people who did, and what touches did they have. And sort of our data is in a bunch of different places, so we have some struggles with that, but that's sort of the meta level. And then I also look at things like dei metrics. So one thing we're looking at now is, like, of the people who are using our program, what percentage of people of color and what percentage of gender equity do we have? And so we've shown pretty good results there, but we have some weird ones where for some reason, mission Library is used overwhelmingly by white people.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:23]:
Why?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:15:24]:
I don't know. Why is that the case? And is it because of how we're offering it? Is it because of how we're advertising it. So my point is that I've measured a lot of different things over the years. Some of them have been very useful and some of them have not. But it's been a really good exercise to constantly just try to measure things, see if it tells you anything, and if it doesn't, drop it and move on to the next thing. But I don't know that LND has it's very hard to say, like, a straight, like, hey, we have ROI, we're saving the business this much because at the end of the day, we are a cost center and we can't change that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:15:55]:
Yeah, I think that's totally right. And I think you make an excellent point about just, like, with all things planning and design. Like, planning is great, but only as long as you don't get stuck in like, a planning trap of you're just like, thinking and thinking. And so you're right in that we often talk about, hey, we need to figure out what the end goal is, we need to figure out the metrics beforehand, we need to do all that stuff. But especially at a startup, or especially if you're just trying to do something different, you might not know, you just might not get it. I'll never forget, I mean, with my background at SpaceX, that's obviously a big way that they go is just like, just launch it, let's just go. And I remember seeing an interview for anybody right now in South Texas. They're undergoing a massive campaign with Starship, which is their newest rocket. And a few years ago, they were doing a test campaign of the second stage of that rocket where they were launching it like 12 km into the air and then bringing it back down and having it land. And the first three of them all failed. They come down and smash into the ground and explode in this massive explosion. And I remember hearing an interview with Elon talking about it, where he said that in all of those missions, the reason for failure had not even been on their list, like, top ten list of, likeliest, reasons to fail. So you just don't know. You need to think ahead a little bit, but you got to do it. And then just like you said, make sure you have a plan of how am I going to learn from this once I do it. Yeah, that's fantastic. So with all that iteration, what do you think have been some of the biggest wins, the biggest successes over these last couple of years?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:17:38]:
Definitely the top one is the building of our internship program. So I ended up hiring a technical training program manager to build technical internships, basically because I tried to have a bunch of interns come on and it was very haphazard and I just didn't know enough, technically. And so it wasn't working sustainably. We couldn't scale it. And so we brought someone on and he built out this absolutely gorgeous training program to get people from sort of a very low level like Linux AWS knowledge into DevOps engineers. And that program has been awesome because you're right, you prep and you prep and you prep and you're like, I hope this works. But you so often don't see the reasons why something would fail. And so it's pretty awesome when you prep and it actually works. We did all of this work and this succeeded. Right now we have and we're small, so these are little numbers, but we have five of our former interns currently working as DevOps engineers. We have one more who's going to come onto the team this year. But yeah, it was just such a great program because he built in so much study time but so much shadowing time. And we had the flexibility that as we were in flight, we were able to change things. We found out we had a bunch of errors in how we'd set up the shadowing for some of the departments. And so my program manager went in, embedded himself in the departments, learned a lot more about how they operated and was able to get traction with them and get the interns a lot more work and up level the shadowing to a better way. So that's been a really cool program and we've also had great diversity with that. So altogether all of our interns, I think we have had 75% racial diversity and 50% gender diversity. So getting all these people into Mission Cloud, into these cloud careers, that's been so cool. And that's not just the six I was talking about that's sort of overall in the whole program. So that's been an awesome one. I think it's just a testament too to people can learn if you teach them things, if you make the investment and you do it, they can just learn the things. It's hard and it takes effort, but it's not like, I don't know, I think people at companies get really entrenched to this idea of like, well, I need to bring someone who can just hit the ground running and they have to know everything already. And it's like, okay, none of us knew everything already when we started our job. Ridiculous. And also these are not impossible things to teach. These are very possible. So that was really cool to see some of the other successes. I think some of the more structured mentorship programs we've set up have been really great. One thing I've always kind of hated about mentorship programs is that if they're just awkward, you're kind of like, here's a person, here's another person, bam, go do something. We set it up much more structured where we identified what the person needed, matched them specifically with another person, had specific reasons why they were matched and what career advice they could provide for that person. Had a bunch of background documentation to help them. Like, here's how you set up your meetings. This is the expectation of what you're going to talk about. This is how many times we want you to meet with them. So having that structure helps because I know for myself, I always feel very shy with people who I want to be my mentor. And it's like, are you sure you want to talk to me? Are you sure? And eventually I just won't reach out. So we wanted that and that was a really great in the analysis we did of our evolutions, 50% of people who were matched with a mentor had a promotion or a role change. So that was by far the biggest predictor of whether someone was going to move up in their career, which I think is supported in outside data as well, that mentorship programs are really good for people's careers. We want to keep doing that.
Matt Gjertsen [00:21:10]:
If I could pause you on the mentorship program because I think I love how you were talking about how deliberate you were with the connections. Was that simply because of your size, you were able to be much more hands on because of the scale of it? How did you practically go about trying to make those connections and make sure that they were so deliberate?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:21:33]:
Yeah, it was very manual. People would apply. We had an application form, and an application form was, this is exactly what I'm looking for. And we had pretty specific prompts of what industry do you want? What level of person are you looking for? What are the exact things that you are looking out of this relationship? So we had that and then I would just go in and read it. And then I had a list of people kind of just in my head of people at Mission who I thought would be good mentors. But then I also often reached out to networks for that. So all of our C suite I would ask, okay, we're looking for this type of person. Do you have anyone in mind that you could connect, like, in this industry? So it is a manual lift. Right now we're trying to figure out how do we expand it, how do we scale it? But right now it literally is go in, find someone that fits and match them. And then we're going to be using a program that you recommended, N Border, to start doing more of the automated introductions over the program. So sending emails of people like, hey, you've been matched. This is why you need to meet now, the next month, did you meet, what happened? Meet again? We've got all these prompts, so automating the follow up. But I think the beginning part still has to be pretty manual.
Matt Gjertsen [00:22:38]:
Yeah, the military person inside me is like screaming about scale and like, you have to be able to scale it for it to be a solution. But it's not true. I mean, it's something that I've really had to learn since leaving the military. It's a lesson that I think was best encapsulated when I learned about the story of Airbnb and when they first got started and they were struggling getting users and getting people to rent their homes. And so they went out to the first few people who were on the platform, they're like early super users and just went to their homes and did photography for them. They were doing it and asked them all personally. And the takeaway that they always say is sometimes in order to succeed, you have to start unscalable. You have to do the unscalable things, figure out what works without worrying about scale, and then figure out how to scale it, which is it sounds exactly like what you're doing right now. I think a lot of people, myself included, may not have been willing to put in the work, do that initial program launch simply because I'm like, but there's no way to scale this. And it's like, well, first you got to figure out if it works. Back to your point of just putting it out there, do the unscalable thing, figure out what works and then figure out how to scale what works. Seems like the lesson there to me.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:24:06]:
Yeah, I think so. And I think it's funny because I was actually wanting to coach my team on this a little bit this week. I've been thinking about this because I feel like there's a resistance to getting involved in projects when you don't have all the answers of what you're going to do. Yes. So we need to figure out a way to implement skill assessments. We've been using a program called Skills based to do skill assessments, but it's all self report. So someone's like, well, I think I'm at three out of four, I don't know. And they just put it in. And we did that kind of as a stop gap of like, we just need something and we need a database of people we can search and what their skills are. So let's just do this and I'll figure it out later. But now we need to figure out a way to implement a skill assessment. And that's really hard to do. And if you don't have a giant corporate subscription to some of the big platforms who potentially can do it for you, although often their skill assessments aren't that good, you have to build it in house, which is an enormous proposition. But the thing is, we need it. What I'm trying to coach people on is just do a thing, just try a thing. I don't care what it is. Literally, just go talk to one person and be like, I'm going to ask you a million questions and see if I can get at it, and then let's see what we can do from that. But especially when you're thinking about business goals and things like that, you just have to do the thing. We know. We have an issue with our interview process not catching some people who maybe don't have some skills that they think they have or that they say they have, and then later we find out that they actually don't have the skill. And then suddenly, whoa, we have to go backwards and do a big skill development, a big learning plan and all this stuff. And now we're three months in. Now we're six months in and they still don't know the thing. So can we eliminate that time? Can we just do a skeleton up front? That must be done. We have to do it. It is a business necessity. So just do something sometimes and just try.
Matt Gjertsen [00:25:54]:
Yeah, I love that lesson, I think for anybody listening too, if you want to check it out or anybody listening wants to check it out, I'll link it in show notes I do have on the Better Video Studios YouTube channel, there is a video on how to launch a simple skill strategy in your organization. So I don't know if it'll solve your problems, but I think it falls in line 100%. What you're talking about, though is you kind of just have to start somewhere. And I think we do get stuck trying to solve the last sometimes it's 20%, sometimes it's 5%, sometimes it's 1%, and we're just stuck on that 1% that doesn't fit into the solution and it's like just forget about them at first. You'll get there, you have to be able to come back and solve it, but you got to start moving forward before you can do anything. Awesome. Well, this has been a great discussion. Thank you so much for all this. I think there's a lot of great lessons in there. Any final thoughts or lessons that you have from your first couple of years at a company that you'd like to share with other kind of smaller learning development teams?
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:27:05]:
Boy, so many.
Matt Gjertsen [00:27:07]:
That's a big question.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:27:09]:
Wow. Yeah, I think the fail fast lesson is sort of there of just like, do something and you will fall in your face so many times. And I think I fall into this trap a lot too when you are because the first two years I was at Mission, I was the only person on my team and now we have a bigger team, but I was it and I think a lot of listeners out there probably are the same way. They're the only person. And that can be a really tricky part to be in. Because you are a learning person, you are expected to have all of the answers. And it can be really difficult to say, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to build that. I don't know what that means. I don't know what is good here. And this is something I really struggle with, is just saying, yeah, I don't know. I know you're asking for something. I don't know what to do here. I don't know the answers. We don't actually have to have all the answers. And I'm still working on what to do to figure out, then where do you go? But I think a lot of it is building the community. One of the most powerful things that I found when I came to Los Angeles was finding the learning and development community where I met you was having other professionals and being like, oh my God, I'm not alone. So we can be so isolated in our companies, even at small companies, and finding those other people that are out there that are doing this work is so unbelievably valuable. So if anyone's listening and you want to add me on LinkedIn, please, I would love to talk to other.
Matt Gjertsen [00:28:34]:
And yeah, that's such I think you're so spot on that's one of the things that I love about the L. D. Community is it's just a great community. We have lots of good there's great conferences, there's great events. There's a great space on LinkedIn. Yeah, it's really great. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Carrie. It's been a great discussion. Have a great rest of your day.
Keri Barnett-Howell [00:28:56]:
Thank you so much.
Matt Gjertsen [00:28:57]:
Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you liked the discussion, make sure to hit like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. As a reminder, if your team is struggling keeping up with the training development demands of your organization, we want to help. Better Everyday Studios is a full service instructional design team that can help you with everything from ideation to actual content creation and delivery. Please reach out to us using the link in the episode notes below. Have a great day.
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